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White House Discord: Bob Woodward Book, NYT Op-Ed

It's very easy for me to loath Trump. From the day he announced, and then denounced Mexicans, I thought I recognized a demagogue. Almost nothing he has said or done has eased my concerns. But my father taught me early on to always remember, when judging others, that "there but for the grace of God goes I". So, loathing his character issues, and the quote I left earlier regarding the fact that he never appeals to the better angels in his fellow citizens, but only the baser instincts, summarizes those issues succinctly, is not enough to translate loathing what he represents into outright hatred of the man as a human being.

Further, am I to assume, that if I find Woodward and his book's interpretation to be an accurate portrait of concern among his subordinates, that I am therefore "deranged", or afflicted with "insanity"? Why is a deep concern for the democratic institutions of my country a form of hatred and insanity? Why is it not instead the concern of someone who is familiar with his nation's' history, on the one hand, and worry and concern of what happens when a demagogue assumes power in a nation on the other hand?

And what exactly is a middle ground where Trump is concerned?

If we look back at our history, we can find some corrupt administrations. History judges them to be so. Yet, at the time, there were no doubt members of the party in question who supported a corrupt administration simply because it was controlled by their party. And there would have been citizens who supported that administration, for any number of reasons. It represented their party, they did not believe the corruption allegations, they supported its policies otherwise, etc. Others would have seen right through the charade and opposed said president, or even opposed them simply for tribal reasons.

So now, at this time in America's history, I don't know how I approach Trump other then loathing the character defects that has led to no effort on his part to inspire our higher angels, as well as opposition to his treatment of minorities, his treatment of "others", of scapegoats that every demagogue uses to channel fear and anger. I don't know how I find a middle ground that does not involve hoping for this man's removal from office. And I don't find it insane to see Woodward's book as a baseline to understanding the interior workings of his administration. I believe Woodward, I do not believe Trump. That does not make me insane.

Rather then hate the man outright, or froth with insanity, I can very easily see him as a tragic figure. He seems extraordinarily insecure. He seems narcissistic to a dangerous degree. But he is a human being. I can see all this as the story of a tragic figure. It goes right back to that core lesson my father taught me when judging others. That does not mean I can just look the other way. But it does mean that seeing him as a tragic human makes it difficult to hate him, much easier to pity him. And it does not mean then I am insane for being concerned with the fate of our democratic institutions. His inclination is to make the Dept of Justice beholden to him, not the protection of our constitution. That makes him dangerous in my estimation.

But, that's how I approach this moment in our history. I can't speak for anyone other then myself. I do know that the concerns I have felt from the start, seemingly confirmed by Trump's words, actions, and the portrait emerging from Woodward's book were not predicated by first deciding I hated Trump, and then I went out to find reasons to justify my hatred. We've had bad administrations in our history. This is another such administration, from what I can see. Labeling people opposed to Trump as "deranged" seems like an impossible path to a hypothetical middle ground.
Great post.

FWIW I don't think there is any middle ground where Trump himself, or his administration, is concerned. I think the middle ground still lies in the center of American values, which favors neither the right nor the left generally. Trump is an extremist, maybe more than any president at least in recent memory. I would expect an extreme reaction to the man and his policies, and frankly, it is awful hard to separate the person from the acts. To paraphrase, by their fruits, you shall know them. Trumps fruit is pretty rotten, and imo it doesn't fall far from the tree.
 
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When I go out into my fields and preach Jesus to my cows, they are at least polite about it. Dunno….. chewing on your cud and looking thoughtful can be really charming.


I realize we have some Jazz fans here who do listen to CNN and have great faith in a slice of our popular culture. My fav radio gal Sonnie Johnson has been predicting a socialist/democrat tide rising for some time, particularly in our young and impressionable folks and college indoctrinaires.

Paint a pretty picture and imagine..... listen to a song and imagine..... smoke some weed and imagine. Things will be great with a whole new world.

But really, cowhide, please research your ideas a bit.

The charge of Obama "weaponizing" federal agencies means purposefully loading the agencies with like-minded folks.... he's a pretty good "community organizer", some say. Some say Bush did the same thing, though not so effectively. This is equivalent to "Loading" a weapon.... a gun, a cannon, a missile.... a plane with bombs.... something like that.

Then, after checking our the reliability of the people you've put in place, you find some channel of passing instructions..... say to the IRS: audit the wacko right wingnuts and R candidates.... check out their compliance exhaustively and sorta edge them outta the race...… This is exactly what happened a few years ago. And nobody cared to call it criminal.

It helps when you can get your FBI to plant some mics in the congressional offices or get their email and follow all their efforts in their office...… Also.... It is what happened under Obama.

And if you have some nuisance journalists saying stuff that doesn't help, well.... the FBI can do something about that too. Spy on the press and then lean on offending reporters a bit. It really helps cut down the noise. This also was done by Obama and his pitt bull federal agents...… And yes, all of these are criminal offenses violating US law, and whaddya know, with Hillary posed to swoop in and make it all ordinary business wouldn't you believe it.... a whole lot of folks just started taking that as the new normal.

So, really, it was nothing special to do similar crimes in getting Trump's campaign spied on.

I think Trump has been pretty clear messaging to the Press that he's not just stupid. But he has done nothing illegal or criminal or that amounted to "weaponizing" the federal agencies.

I believe he decided not to prosecute his enemies because he realized how and why it just wouldn't work. He actually doesn't care what his opponents do or say except just to say the plain fact that his opposition isn't reasonable or right in what they're doing.

Look, I don't see anyone in this site who is going to listen to me, so I should just go out and preach to my damn cows.
I will admit that don't read many of your posts. Some of them seem like stream of consciousness. I don't have time to decode them. But this post is spot on, and for some reason it makes me want to go on a stream of consciousness rant myself.

As a conservative it was very disheartening to see the Obama administration infect government agencies (as described in your post) while the press slobbered over him instead of calling him out. It was frustrating to watch Hillary commit obvious crimes because she knew the sham investigation and compliant media were going to clear her, and then have people preaching in the face of all the blatant evidence that she did nothing wrong. It was disheartening to see Bill Clinton womanize and influence peddle, and then be lectured to that his personal behavior was irrelevant. It was discouraging to see Mitt refuse to respond to end-game attacks (he believed he was taking the high road, I think) and get squashed as a result.

So along comes Trump. He seems as if he was created from the worst parts of all of the preceding politicians, mashed together, and then put on steroids. He's a pure salesman who really doesn't care about the truth. He wouldn't know a high road if it bit him in the ***. He womanizes and brags about it. If he has a thought, no matter what it is, he broadcasts it to the world. He doesn't appear to have a moral compass of any kind. Yet, at least so far, he is standing for conservative principles, and he gets **** done.

Trump is made of mud. You can't get him dirty, no matter what you throw at him. He eats chaos for breakfast, lunch and dinner. The more you dump on him the stronger he gets. Controversies that would have annihilated any other politician are like rocket fuel for him. He is a workaholic with boundless energy. Is this guy really in his 70's? It would be impossible to count the number of times that Trump haters have predicted his end was near. It started on the day he announced his candidacy and it has never let up. What a crazy time we're living through.
 
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There’s a clip of the Bill Maher show where they ask which R has the best chance to win and that blonde, right wing chick that is always on a fox says “of the declared ones right now, Donald Trump” and everyone starts loudly laughing at her.

She called it lol
 
Maybe blaming both sides just avoids taking sides. And whether we like it or not, taking sides is probably inevitable. If Trump supporters think Trump critics are just going to say "sure we'll go down your alternative facts yellow brick road without a fight", it's just not going to happen. What's the point of looking for a compromise now, when that's not possible? Not unless Trump metamorphoses into an honorable man. So take sides, and may the best man win. One side clearly wants Trump out of office, and one side doesn't. Just being in that situation, to this degree, on social media, and in the media, is heavy. It's quite heavy, lol. I envy the oblivious, there's some wisdom in that approach.

Maybe it is a coup. I don't like fighting other Americans, but **** happens. I know he was elected, but I can't worry about that now. I gotta go by what's there to see. And I'll have to use my own set of facts, what I glean from watching it all unfold. I see it puts me on a side, and so be it. We're gonna duke it out. Trump is absurd. Absurd grates on ya. Gotta remove the absurd. This emperor without clothes **** needs correction. The future will have to make of this war what it will. It's a shame, but it's gonna have to play out. At least we can all agree it's different, one for the books. Hopefully we can find a way to be friends again on the other side.
 
@red. Who says there are only two sides? This notion that it’s an A or B fight has always seemed foolish to me.

I can want Trump out of office and still have a healthy distrust of the professional Ds.

It being presented as an A or B fight and those who refuse to join either side being called “fence sitters” and the like is simply having horse blinders in. It just ensures we stay stuck in this trap of our own making.
 
@red. Who says there are only two sides? This notion that it’s an A or B fight has always seemed foolish to me.

I can want Trump out of office and still have a healthy distrust of the professional Ds.

It being presented as an A or B fight and those who refuse to join either side being called “fence sitters” and the like is simply having horse blinders in. It just ensures we stay stuck in this trap of our own making.
Well said. This has been my stance for a long time. I think countries with multiple viable political parties have better representation as a whole because it can shift in multiple directions and allow multiple different viewpoints. In our country you largely get 2, and those are becoming worse and worse.

Abortion for all / No abortion for anyone
Guns for everyone / no guns for anyone
Tax the rich / Feed the rich

We do end up with policy that reflects some middle ground, but largely we miss out on the best solutions because everyone is so caught up in their end of the dichotomy. IMO we have become more and more extreme in political views among our politicians, while the populace generally have remained largely in the middle ground on the issues that really affect them. I also think the rise of social media has had a huge influence on the political spectrum, allowing mob mentality to enlist people in their homes instead of trying to reach people through traditional news media. It allows hysteria to reign instead of some semblance of reason and balance.

And we have never been more divided as a nation politically.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...rowing-partisan-divide-over-political-values/

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0123507#pone-0123507-g002

Here is a plot of congressional voting along party lines over time:

image


But to me this is a chicken and egg scenario. Is the middle really shrinking, and the populace in generally moving toward the extremes, so they are voting in more extreme candidates? Or is the political machine only putting forward extreme candidates, so people adopt their views to justify their votes, or vote for the "lesser of 2 evils" since that is all that is presented? Do the politicians affect the political atmosphere in American more, or does the populace?

Here is another interesting article:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-politics-poll-democrats-republicans/1965431/

Today's instantaneous commentary by a new wave of partisan media fuels tempers and, in some cases, has eroded a sense of civility in public discourse. The growing ideological divide between the two major parties, stoked by the gerrymandering of congressional districts and the financial clout of interest groups, has made it more and more difficult to find common ground.

Despite big challenges facing the nation, Congress was less productive legislatively in 2012 than in any year since the end of World War II.

lott-3_4.jpg

"The fact that the Senate has not passed a budget in four years — how could that happen?" asked former senator Trent Lott. (Photo: H. Darr Beiser, USA TODAY)

"Now you've got — I hate to say it this way — the far right in the Republican Party and the far left in the Democratic Party and, as (William Butler) Yeats would say in his poem, the center would not hold," says former Senate Republican leader Trent Lott, a co-chairman of the BPC Commission on Political Reform. "The fact that the Senate has not passed a budget in four years — how could that happen? The fact that they don't even do appropriations bills anymore? I mean, that's a fundamental thing you have to do to run the government."

He suggests the natural ebb and flow of politics eventually will help. "This, too, shall pass," he says. "We're at a moment in history, a moment in time, when there are people in these positions who don't communicate and who don't get along. I do believe the next generation … House and Senate, Republican and Democrat, will have a different attitude."

I hope he is right and that this will work itself out, and I also hope we can somehow minimize the damage done in the meantime. Frankly I find it frightening that a person like Donald Trump would even ever be taken seriously as a candidate, let alone elected, and I wish it would function as a wake-up call that we have slipped over the edge and are hanging on by our fingertips. But I am afraid we have become lemmings to the political demagogues and so we will rush headlong over the cliff, blissfully ignoring the dangers while we smugly "win" arguments in nebulous internet forums and 45 character tweets.
 
@red. Who says there are only two sides? This notion that it’s an A or B fight has always seemed foolish to me.

I can want Trump out of office and still have a healthy distrust of the professional Ds.

It being presented as an A or B fight and those who refuse to join either side being called “fence sitters” and the like is simply having horse blinders in. It just ensures we stay stuck in this trap of our own making.

Sure, you can distrust both sides where political pros are concerned. It was actually thinking about the thoughts you had expressed lately that caused me realize there was no point in me being what I perceived to be wishy-washy. When it was still just campaign 2016, some weighed in that they could not chose between Clinton and Trump. What that meant per their actual vote varied I'm sure. I had no problem voting for Clinton. In part because Trump was the other candidate. I guess I am not labeling fence sitters anything. I just realize that seeing Trump removed from office is my ideal short-term outcome. And there is no point in me trying to reason with anyone who supports a president who clearly sees himself above the law. So I won't try to reason with them. If they chose to ignore Trump's position that his person is equated with the state, then they are not in the same place as me. Which is fine. I respect their right to feel that way. But I am of a very different mind. The president equates his person with the state. I have a real problem with that. And I don't care if there are a hundred variations of a middle way.

Look, there are many people who ignore all things political. And all of us go about our daily life's, with our own concerns, our own problems, etc. etc. I'm just somebody very invested in what's going on in my country at the moment. Some would say, and they've told me as much right here, that I am way too invested for the good of my mental health. Well, yeah, I can in fact recognize that at times. But, then again, I'm only living once, it's getting late, I'm invested in the outcome, and I'm not compromising my side. I guess, for many reasons, there are those on neither side, etc., etc.

I stated right out that I do not like fighting other Americans over this. And this is not a physical war. You won't find me marching with Antifa. You won't find me swinging a baseball bat at neo Nazis. But, if Trump acts to shut down Mueller, I guess I'll relive my youth and join the demonstrations that will ensue. I don't mind you saying I have blinders on. @Stoked, I regard you as a good man, and respect your voice. But opposing Trump with everything I can muster is the way it must be for me. This whole thing has to come to a head. I did not create that fact. It's going to come to a head regardless of anything I say or do.

I want us to get through this. I want the culture wars to end already. I want the tribal level partisanship to end. I want to see an America at peace with itself. I'm at an age where it is unlikely I will live to see such a day. But, right now, a president who puts himself above the law and equates his person with the state is a precedent that I must resist. The trend has been an increase in executive power and the imperial presidency. That has reached a peak under Trump. I think we all must know it is going to come to a head. I did not anticipate any of this, even a few short years ago. Maybe "up the revolution" is just in my nature. If I am taking it all way too seriously, so be it.
 
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And @Stoked, I want to also say this. The ideal way, the best way, to remove Trump is via the ballot in 2020. I don't really want to see 2 plus years more of this nit wit. But I'm very aware of the passion his core followers feel for the man. I am well aware how invested they must be in the Deep State alternative narrative he has helped create, with his allies in the state media. So, the best outcome is resounding defeat at the ballot box. (And I am aware that is a worst case outcome for his followers). Because impeachment will be as ugly as any of us can imagine. I like to think I am well aware of how dangerous all the potential scenarios are. I don't hate my country. I want to see us get through this in a way that allows us to move forward in a way that does not ostracise groups of Americans. Right now, that seems impossible, and I can only hope that there is a real leader out there somewhere in our ranks with the ability to unite us.
 
Probably nobody should doubt Red's stand is sincere.

Probably the best way to "Duke it out" would be in the political process we have..... elections should mean something.

It seemed to me, at first, to be just some bad sportsmanship about what happened in 2016 voting, but it's more than that. There are a lot of people who don't want democracy unless it's their way. It's generally been that way around the whole world for thousands of years.

So if you don't believe in democracy you need another way to establish who rules what. Lots of folks have found other ways.
 
Back to the thread subject. I think even if Trump supporters chanted "Build the Wall, Lock Her Up", it's just not Trump's way of doing business. He has some ideas about "The Art of The Deal" where he tries to make win/win deals. I was disturbed right off by Trump's being Trump, not about the stupid roughhouse lowlife tweets, but about his highly reasoned initial moves.

He tried to be inclusive by bringing as many political players to his table as he could. He loaded his cabinet with mainsteam players who would've been picked by Jeb Bush or maybe even Hillary.

No surprise a lot of them aren't really on "His Team".

Trump not only donated to Hillary's earlier campaigns, he has been sincerely, soberly, saddened by the divisions among us all that keep us from working together in our own best interest.

Trump is not disturbed by people who differ from him in viewpoints, any more than I am. He wants them involved and wants to include them in his "deal". I don't think he really cares if he's booted outta office. He's got better things to do, really. Well, better money making deals that include his own interests. He is, for all his personal flaws, the most statesmanlike Pres we've had since Reagan.
 
I love the way babe projects whatever he wants Trump to be when it has absolutely no basis in reality.

"Trump is actually just a tender soul who wants us all to get along..."
 
Moderation is a hard thing to get people excited about.

You don’t even have to have moderate stances. Plenty of room for other stances.

Here’s a few non moderate ones of mine.

Military border enforcement
Death penalty for pedos and violent rapists
Pulling back from non formally allied nations
Allowing people to cover who ever the hell they want on insurance for whatever reason they want.

The political spectrum isn’t a line.
 
I love the way babe projects whatever he wants Trump to be when it has absolutely no basis in reality.

"Trump is actually just a tender soul who wants us all to get along..."

CNN and others, many others, have never had any basis in reality for their views. I don't think you would accept any evidence I could offer, either. You are a privileged, you need no basis for your views.

Trump's tweets are all the fodder most folks can take in before deciding fer or agin Trump. I don't think he is "ideological" but I do think he has more of heart than most of his critics.
 
CNN and others, many others, have never had any basis in reality for their views. I don't think you would accept any evidence I could offer, either. You are a privileged, you need no basis for your views.

Trump's tweets are all the fodder most folks can take in before deciding fer or agin Trump. I don't think he is "ideological" but I do think he has more of heart than most of his critics.
I have watched the words come out of Trump's mouth that I judge him by.
 
imo, Hillary talking about the "deplorables" isn't a better level of conversation than Trump throwing street schtick out on tweets.

I think the anti-Trump schtick is just determined efforts to make it all out the very worst case possible to oppose Trump's agenda. If Rs had done that to that degree with Obama, it woulda been made out to be the most bizarre racism imaginable. In short, the media is not objective or non-partisan. Media reflects the commitments of ownership interests, which are pretty solid D and committed to the progressive agenda.
 
You don’t even have to have moderate stances. Plenty of room for other stances.

Here’s a few non moderate ones of mine.

Military border enforcement
Death penalty for pedos and violent rapists
Pulling back from non formally allied nations
Allowing people to cover who ever the hell they want on insurance for whatever reason they want.

The political spectrum isn’t a line.

Of course, Bullets comment about how moderate politics doesn't make the news is spot on. But you have me wondering here..... I'm pretty much agin death penalty for sexual offenses but I agree insurance carriers could make life better for people, and earn great returns on their investments, if they allowed people to contract as small groups or households on standard measures of risk. Corporates could negotiate similar terms for their employee benefits, and we'd all be better off.

If you're saying you have these views, I applaud the fact that you care that much.
 
I will admit that don't read many of your posts. Some of them seem like stream of consciousness. I don't have time to decode them. But this post is spot on, and for some reason it makes me want to go on a stream of consciousness rant myself.

As a conservative it was very disheartening to see the Obama administration infect government agencies (as described in your post) while the press slobbered over him instead of calling him out. It was frustrating to watch Hillary commit obvious crimes because she knew the sham investigation and compliant media were going to clear her, and then have people preaching in the face of all the blatant evidence that she did nothing wrong. It was disheartening to see Bill Clinton womanize and influence peddle, and then be lectured to that his personal behavior was irrelevant. It was discouraging to see Mitt refuse to respond to end-game attacks (he believed he was taking the high road, I think) and get squashed as a result.

So along comes Trump. He seems as if he was created from the worst parts of all of the preceding politicians, mashed together, and then put on steroids. He's a pure salesman who really doesn't care about the truth. He wouldn't know a high road if it bit him in the ***. He womanizes and brags about it. If he has a thought, no matter what it is, he broadcasts it to the world. He doesn't appear to have a moral compass of any kind. Yet, at least so far, he is standing for conservative principles, and he gets **** done.

Trump is made of mud. You can't get him dirty, no matter what you throw at him. He eats chaos for breakfast, lunch and dinner. The more you dump on him the stronger he gets. Controversies that would have annihilated any other politician are like rocket fuel for him. He is a workaholic with boundless energy. Is this guy really in his 70's? It would be impossible to count the number of times that Trump haters have predicted his end was near. It started on the day he announced his candidacy and it has never let up. What a crazy time we're living through.

You sound kind of proud of him. And really impressed
 
Well said. This has been my stance for a long time. I think countries with multiple viable political parties have better representation as a whole because it can shift in multiple directions and allow multiple different viewpoints. In our country you largely get 2, and those are becoming worse and worse.

Abortion for all / No abortion for anyone
Guns for everyone / no guns for anyone
Tax the rich / Feed the rich

We do end up with policy that reflects some middle ground, but largely we miss out on the best solutions because everyone is so caught up in their end of the dichotomy. IMO we have become more and more extreme in political views among our politicians, while the populace generally have remained largely in the middle ground on the issues that really affect them. I also think the rise of social media has had a huge influence on the political spectrum, allowing mob mentality to enlist people in their homes instead of trying to reach people through traditional news media. It allows hysteria to reign instead of some semblance of reason and balance.

And we have never been more divided as a nation politically.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...rowing-partisan-divide-over-political-values/

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0123507#pone-0123507-g002

Here is a plot of congressional voting along party lines over time:

image


But to me this is a chicken and egg scenario. Is the middle really shrinking, and the populace in generally moving toward the extremes, so they are voting in more extreme candidates? Or is the political machine only putting forward extreme candidates, so people adopt their views to justify their votes, or vote for the "lesser of 2 evils" since that is all that is presented? Do the politicians affect the political atmosphere in American more, or does the populace?

Here is another interesting article:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...-politics-poll-democrats-republicans/1965431/



I hope he is right and that this will work itself out, and I also hope we can somehow minimize the damage done in the meantime. Frankly I find it frightening that a person like Donald Trump would even ever be taken seriously as a candidate, let alone elected, and I wish it would function as a wake-up call that we have slipped over the edge and are hanging on by our fingertips. But I am afraid we have become lemmings to the political demagogues and so we will rush headlong over the cliff, blissfully ignoring the dangers while we smugly "win" arguments in nebulous internet forums and 45 character tweets.

Tell me more about this “chicken vs the egg”
 
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