If not Rubio then what?

[Handlogten's Heros]

+/- isn't pointless and Utah does an extreme amount of mixing of different lineups.

And Rubio is big time in big moments (people always want to forget this). Last year he was 53% from the field, 57% from 3, and 95% from the FT line in the final 5 minutes of games within 5 points.

And the sample size is super small of 10 minutes this year of clutch time, but he's shooting 50%/50% from the field and three again.

+- is pointless without context... saying the team is +5 when a guy is on the court says little about what he actually did and can be misleading. If the team has a net rating of +10 over the season then +5 isn't all that great.

He did the little things last night and it helped. The deflection save was huge. I love Ricky but his limitations have really hurt us this year. I'm just not here for the non-Jazz Ricky fans to shame us after that game last night.

I want him to play well... but I'm not just a Ricky fan... I'm a Jazz fan. I'm not pulling for any individual one player to be awesome... just want to win. So if Ricky ain't doing it then I'm looking elsewhere. I honestly think half the issue is the Ricky Rudy Favs combo... and Favs has been decent (thought he was great last night). It's just not ideal unless Ricky is killing it.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

+- is pointless without context... saying the team is +5 when a guy is on the court says little about what he actually did and can be misleading. If the team has a net rating of +10 over the season then +5 isn't all that great.

He did the little things last night and it helped. The deflection save was huge. I love Ricky but his limitations have really hurt us this year. I'm just not here for the non-Jazz Ricky fans to shame us after that game last night.

I want him to play well... but I'm not just a Ricky fan... I'm a Jazz fan. I'm not pulling for any individual one player to be awesome... just want to win. So if Ricky ain't doing it then I'm looking elsewhere. I honestly think half the issue is the Ricky Rudy Favs combo... and Favs has been decent (thought he was great last night). It's just not ideal unless Ricky is killing it.

Season long +/- isnt pointless, especially when it holds up for his entire career.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Season long +/- isnt pointless, especially when it holds up for his entire career.

So when Trevor Ariza has a higher +- than KD last year I should believe that is valuable information?

I'm just saying its noisy... he had a positive box +- but shared the floor with DM, Rudy, and Joe a ton. He contributed to the team success for sure, but not more than those other guys.

In a league where shooting and offense are getting more and more important Rubio is struggling... he needs to figure it out or it won't work long term.

 

[Sugarless]

He hasn't been consistently good on defense this year. Was good last night and in GS, but we've been torched by ball handling guards this year. Not all his fault but some of it is.

I don't care what his plus minus was for a **** team 4-5 years ago... game has changed a bit. I care that his shooting and turnovers were murdering our offense this year and that he was bringing enough of the magic intangible stuff to justify his awful offense. His shooting needs to improve because if it doesn't we have better options this year.

He was good last year, but his net rating ended up basically even (+- is pointless if you are sharing the floor with the best players). I'm hopeful he picks it up, but the Rubio diehards might want to chill on the finger wagging until he gets his shooting anywhere near an acceptable level. His net rating is quite bad this year... so hopefully Rick Curry shows up soon.

No, the Jazz don't have better options this year. Exum is still not an option to run the team and neither is Mitchell at PG when he's still coming into his own as a pro and has a lot to figure out despite how great he is already. He's a scoring guard who can drive and dish and find some guys when there's space, not a full-time PG by any means.

And again, read the posts from a year ago: Rubio's defense was worse than it's been so far, he had zero chemistry with Gobert which has clearly changed now, he was shooting like crap (like every single year at the start of the season) and he was committing even more TOs than he's had so far. And look how that turned out. We're 11 games into the season, half the roster has started off slow and the insane pace we had to start the year has already gone down significantly. It's time to be patient and work out the kinks offensively and defensively to gradually get back to where the team was last spring, not the time for knee-jerk reactions and drastic changes that will lead nowhere (and quite honestly, I'm really glad Snyder and his coaching team won't be taking that kind of advice).

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

So when Trevor Ariza has a higher +- than KD last year I should believe that is valuable information?

I'm just saying its noisy... he had a positive box +- but shared the floor with DM, Rudy, and Joe a ton. He contributed to the team success for sure, but not more than those other guys.

In a league where shooting and offense are getting more and more important Rubio is struggling... he needs to figure it out or it won't work long term.

It should tell you Trevor Ariza was really important to the Rockets, and oh look, the Rockets have struggled to adjust to his absence this year.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It should tell you Trevor Ariza was really important to the Rockets, and oh look, the Rockets have struggled to adjust to his absence this year.

Okay... sure. Carmelo also had a high +- last year... John Henson had a bigger plus minus than Giannis, but you are right it means much much more than just that he shared the floor with CP3 and Harden a lot... because he has transformed Phoenix.

I'm not saying he isn't important but it has much more to do with what the other guys did than what he did.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Okay... sure. Carmelo also had a high +- last year... John Henson had a bigger plus minus than Giannis, but you are right it means much much more than just that he shared the floor with CP3 and Harden a lot... because he has transformed Phoenix.

I'm not saying he isn't important but it has much more to do with what the other guys did than what he did.

Phoenix is a trash team. I dont know, you are giving me all these single season things when Rubio has a track record.

And Carmello isnt a bad player for what he is. It's that people hype him up based on his past. He's a perfectly fine offensive bench player who can be a positive player if not used too much. And Henson's +/- accurately reflects he was the best big man on a team with really bad big men.

 

[checkbookdoc]

I also like the idea of Spencer Dinwiddie. I like that he is not restricted, so all you have to do is make the best offer to him.

I wonder if there would be a way to trade for him, and if so how having his bird rights would impact our cap flexibility this off season (i.e., would we be able to sign a max offer and then take care of Dinwiddie?).

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I also like the idea of Spencer Dinwiddie. I like that he is not restricted, so all you have to do is make the best offer to him.

I wonder if there would be a way to trade for him, and if so how having his bird rights would impact our cap flexibility this off season (i.e., would we be able to sign a max offer and then take care of Dinwiddie?).

Yes... we could agree to terms even and just order the signings properly and do it that way.

Not sure they’d trade him... it would take a 1st. He is kind of a banner for their development program. If Russell was better they’d probably be more willing to move him.

This idea would work with Brogdon too. Low caphold there.

 

[LoPo]

I would love to think we could improve our PG situation externally, I just get the feeling that the FO will roll with a combination of Rubio, Exum, Mitchell and even Grayson. I just really hope that Rubio doesn't get paid too much. That would be a damn shame.

 

[elan_prodigy]

Whats everyones thoughts on a Dante for Fultz swap?? @NAOS @MVP @Saint Cy of JFC @Wes Mantooth in particular as you guys are out on Exum. Maybe throw in Thabo or a 2nd???

Bank on Fultz upside with our development staff and play the Exum + Simmons card with Philly. Philly can save face by getting a lock down perimeter defender back.

Fultz and DM could be pretty tantalizing moving forward but its hard to know what Fultzs trade value is...

 

[fishonjazz]

Whats everyones thoughts on a Dante for Fultz swap?? @NAOS @MVP @Saint Cy of JFC @Wes Mantooth in particular as you guys are out on Exum. Maybe throw in Thabo or a 2nd???

Bank on Fultz upside with our development staff and play the Exum + Simmons card with Philly. Philly can save face by getting a lock down perimeter defender back.

Fultz and DM could be pretty tantalizing moving forward but its hard to know what Fultzs trade value is...

I would do it if i were the jazz. Dont think philly would though. Fultz is younger, a little bit cheaper, probably has more upside, and is currently the better player by a little bit statistically. Fultz is shooting better from the field and from 3, has better rebounding, assist, and turnover numbers per 36. Exum gets to the line more and shoots a better percentage from the line.

 

[LoPo]

Interesting discussion.

I think if Philly trades Fultz, it would be for a stretch 4 or cap space. I think they are perfectly happy to play Simmons as the primary PG and McConnell as the other PG option.

I find it very interesting though that Fultz wasn't involved in that deal. Philly with Saric and Minnesota with Fultz just seem to make them both better. Fultz could soon take over for Teague and Saric would give Philly Ben, Reddick, Butler, Saric and Embiid.



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[MVP]

Whats everyones thoughts on a Dante for Fultz swap?? @NAOS @MVP @Saint Cy of JFC @Wes Mantooth in particular as you guys are out on Exum. Maybe throw in Thabo or a 2nd???

Bank on Fultz upside with our development staff and play the Exum + Simmons card with Philly. Philly can save face by getting a lock down perimeter defender back.

Fultz and DM could be pretty tantalizing moving forward but its hard to know what Fultzs trade value is...

Fultz jumper is broken as well. Not sure about his mental make up, he seems a bit weak too me. Philly may do it just to create Aussie connection though..

 

[David Hume]

Whats everyones thoughts on a Dante for Fultz swap?? @NAOS @MVP @Saint Cy of JFC @Wes Mantooth in particular as you guys are out on Exum. Maybe throw in Thabo or a 2nd???

Bank on Fultz upside with our development staff and play the Exum + Simmons card with Philly. Philly can save face by getting a lock down perimeter defender back.

Fultz and DM could be pretty tantalizing moving forward but its hard to know what Fultzs trade value is...

I was thinking about posting this trade idea yesterday. It apparently is floating through more than one person’s mind. Could the front offices of Philly and Utah be considering it just to give fresh starts? Hard to say, but I was intrigued to see others were mulling over the same idea.

 

[NAOS]

I'm on the Brogdon train.

 

[Keefe]

Whats everyones thoughts on a Dante for Fultz swap?? @NAOS @MVP @Saint Cy of JFC @Wes Mantooth in particular as you guys are out on Exum. Maybe throw in Thabo or a 2nd???

Bank on Fultz upside with our development staff and play the Exum + Simmons card with Philly. Philly can save face by getting a lock down perimeter defender back.

Fultz and DM could be pretty tantalizing moving forward but its hard to know what Fultzs trade value is...

Philly would hang up the phone.

 

[Keefe]

Cy’s a born politician.

 

[Tragic66]

Philly would hang up the phone.

Agree. Dante + a lot for Fultz

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I’d rather have Dante than Fultz... Dante is a decent rotation player with some uniqueness... hopefully he can be more. I don’t know if Fultz can overcome whatever the hell it is that messed up his shot.

The Dante stans are too high on him and the haters are too low. He had a rough couple minutes last game. He’s going to be fine.