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Reggie Jackson vs Brandon Knight

Brown Notes said:
He gets better every year. Great, great work ethic.
He plays as hard or harder than anybody on the court every night.
He has shown clutch ability.
Showed a willingness to learn a new position.
Toughness/ Durability.
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He got better in a lot of areas. Rebounding went down dramatically
And he said this off-season he is a PF and does not want to play SF.
Durability is actually not good. Does he play a lot of games. yes but does he get injured every year and does his production drop dramatically? BIG YES It has happened every year he got big minutes.

He only averaged 7 rebounds per game last year in 34 minutes. So rebounding was his strong suit now its a weakness. Guys reach over him all the time and tip it to themselves. Millsap and Jefferson both have a boxing out problem and that is why we let so many teams get offensive rebounds. Jefferson I thought did a better job than Millsap boxing out and rebounding than Millsap did. We lost some very close and important games because we gave up so many offensive rebounds.
I don't care how hard someone plays or how tough they are or how great there work ethic is if they aren't getting the job done and we keep losing to the elite teams every year. If we want to stay mediocre than keep players like Millsap at the 4. But if we want to be elite like the top teams we should do what they are doing and get size like EVERY single one of the top teams have.
 
Jazz4ever said:
I agree, are you saying Jackson would be worthy of a #12 pick though? Outside of that not sure how he even fits into the argument.
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Ya I think he is worthy of it if Jimmer and Biyombo are already drafted. We might be able to trade down also and get him.
 
Twin Towers said:
Ya I think he is worthy of it if Jimmer and Biyombo are already drafted. We might be able to trade down also and get him.
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I don't think the Jazz have any workout plans for Jackson though. I doubt he is on their radar even in a trade down situation.
 
Jazz4ever said:
Has Jackson worked out for anyone? He had an injury that prevented him from testing in the combine so that may be the reason as well.
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He did like 2 workouts from what I remember. But yes there was an injury and rumors of Portland or Celtics promising him they would draft him.
 
I don't care how hard someone plays or how tough they are or how great there work ethic is if they aren't getting the job done and we keep losing to the elite teams every year. If we want to stay mediocre than keep players like Millsap at the 4. But if we want to be elite like the top teams we should do what they are doing and get size like EVERY single one of the top teams have.
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Sap/AJ was not a good rebounding or defensive combination. Jefferson is not a good help defender and Sap can't deal with centers pretending to be PFs. Certainly doesn't make them mediocre individual players, just not a good fit in those spots. They looked a lot better playing with Favors as he does box out much more consistently. Sap/AJ really got in trouble with teams playing 2 center sized guys for all the reasons you mentioned. You are correct that Sap is not a starting 4 on a championship team. But that's not my point.

I don't recall Sap ever saying he wouldn't play the 3. He told a reporter that he didn't want to think about going back to the bench at the time of the question, which was right after the last game. IIRC. Maybe he did say something like what you said but I don't recall it.

You seem to think that keeping Millsap requires him to play starter minutes at PF. I don't agree with that premise. 10-15 minutes at 3, 15-20 minutes at 4. As a tweener player he has to be used creatively in situations that take advantage of his strengths. In this scenario there is plenty of room between the 4-5 spots for Favors, Al, and even a rook. Assuming Sap can improve his handle and J just a little bit he will be perfectly capable of this.

Also Sap is a productive vet within the flex. Your premise regarding Bass etc.. assumes that guys will just walk on the floor and immediately produce. They wouldn't and neither will any rookie. It takes a while to get it. Losing Sap would mean very likely losing 4-7 games directly from his departure, assuming Corbin keeps that offense.

Finally Millsap is a homegrown developed player. I hate the idea of having a guy get better year after year only to throw him away when he hits his prime. Sap is much more valuable than having yet another 20 year old.
 
Twin Towers said:
Agree to disagree. Look at the list of players i have there. Do any of those guys have plays set up for them? Or do they have to create there own offense? They all have to create there own shots. They don't have set plays for the PF to score like the Jazz do almost every time down the court. Those guys have to get garbage points or hope the wing players pass to them on a pick and roll. The Jazz are very strict about looking for the PF rolling to the hoop. no other team does that. The Jazz also set screens for the PF to get open CONSISTENTLY. No other team does that.
We are overvaluing Millsap big time. He is a great role player but nothing more.
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Dude you are a clown. None of those guys are given opportunities because they aren't skilled enough. I like to see Bass,Maxiel,Hansbrough,Landry, or Ed Davis knock down a step back jumper. They can't do it like Sap can.
 
Millsap is SO much better than his former worshippers/current haters/silly turncoats would have you believe.

Most players don't noticeably improve after year three. Millsap has done it every year for 5. He's a player that has answered every doubter at every step along the way and done it without any demands. The guy might not be a starter on a championship team, but he IS a special player. I don't even know a predecessor that I could compare him to.

And I am not saying he is untradable, but you'd better get some very good return on him. He's the kind of player that if you're trading, you combine him with other assets for a all-star or maybe superstar. If you don't get that, there's no hurry to dump him for quantity garbage. As far as Biyombo, I don't know. I'd much rather trade down to Washington and grab him there as I'm wary of Kanter.

If you believe Millsap can't transition to the 3 if given an offseason, I will bet against you. To come into the league nothing but a hustle player and become as skilled as he has (his court vision and passing is great, and he might be the best shooter on the Jazz), is special. I want that in my locker room and on my court.
 
I think I can summarize TT's argument:

Sap needs to go because he is a role player.

Therefore, trade him for a middling lottery pick in a draft stuffed with role players.
 
Dwill_PwnasaurasRex said:
Dude you are a clown. None of those guys are given opportunities because they aren't skilled enough. I like to see Bass,Maxiel,Hansbrough,Landry, or Ed Davis knock down a step back jumper. They can't do it like Sap can.
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No your a clown comparing a single move to every other player. Also your a clown for not listening to anything I am saying. I admit Millsap is better than all of these players. But my point is Millsap is overrated and his production is not hard to replace in terms of stats. Which is usually the first comment everyone makes. 17 and 9 (when its actually 7).
All of those players can put up similar stats is all i am saying. Its the same reason why Millsap would not look good when long side Boozer. Millsap would not get very many looks. He would only get garbage points. And that is exactly how players like Bass are treated. Nobody sets them up on offense. Millsap rarely scores on his own. That is what makes the Jazz so great is because our offense makes average players look better if they play within the system.
i love Millsap trust me. I have been a homer for him since he got here. I actually had him as one of my sleepers before the Jazz even drafted him. I knew he was going to be a steal in the draft. I thought he was a later first round pick. Blew me away we got him.
I just know next year in the playoffs when we are playing a tough team. And Jefferson or Favors are in foul trouble and we have rely on Millsap down the stretch one game against the Lakers or Mavericks or Thunder etc we will get beat on the boards and stoping people from getting to the hoop.
Jefferson can contest shots and at least make someone think twice about going into the paint. Favors seems to already have a knack for it. Millsap doesn't stop anyone. He gets lucky on weak side blocks every once in awhile. I would rather have a 3 man rotation where we always have size to stop penetration rather than a guy who is a crafty scorer and a hard worker.

No teams run the offense through the PF spot the way the Jazz do.
 
I'm just going to say that after reading all of TT comments in this thread and others that I am sooooooooooo glad he isn't our GM. We would be the worst team in the league following what he thinks would be best for the team.
 
Brown Notes said:
I think I can summarize TT's argument:

Sap needs to go because he is a role player.

Therefore, trade him for a middling lottery pick in a draft stuffed with role players.
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Almost except its about his role and size on this team. I want a 3 man rotation at the PF and C spot where we always have someone to stop penetration to the hoop. Not being able to stop that results in us getting killed on the offensive boards because everyone is out of position or kick outs for 3. Or just easy layups for them.

I am about stopping opposing teams from getting to the hoop. Millsap can't do that. Has never been able to.

His value will drop after this year once Favors starting playing better. So he won't have as much trade value next year when he goes back to the bench. And Millsap playing 30 minutes a night for us at the 4 will only hurt us on defense which we all know is our biggest problem. Stopping penetration. And please don't say well we could play him for at the 3 or he could start there. Corbin won't be doing that. Millsap if he is still on this team will be playing most of his minutes at the 4 and it will only hurt the development of Favors. Favors needs to play his minutes at the 4. Corbin was taught by Sloan and Corbin will play the VETERAN because he deserves it rather than thinking long term for this team.
 
Ben10 said:
I'm just going to say that after reading all of TT comments in this thread and others that I am sooooooooooo glad he isn't our GM. We would be the worst team in the league following what he thinks would be best for the team.
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Comments like yours make you lose all credibility because you use insults rather than arguing the points I make. Or bringing up other points to prove me wrong.
But I am sure it makes you feel really good to criticize someone while providing no substance to the discussion. Good Job! ;)
 
I wasn't comparing a single move, I was just using it as an example. Millsap has a ton of offensive moves. To say he only scores when he is setup would be dead wrong. You don't have repeated 25+ point games solely on being set up. He is so much better than Bass it's not even close.
 
Twin Towers said:
No your a clown comparing a single move to every other player. Also your a clown for not listening to anything I am saying. I admit Millsap is better than all of these players. But my point is Millsap is overrated and his production is not hard to replace in terms of stats. Which is usually the first comment everyone makes. 17 and 9 (when its actually 7).
All of those players can put up similar stats is all i am saying. Its the same reason why Millsap would not look good when long side Boozer. Millsap would not get very many looks. He would only get garbage points. And that is exactly how players like Bass are treated. Nobody sets them up on offense. Millsap rarely scores on his own. That is what makes the Jazz so great is because our offense makes average players look better if they play within the system.
i love Millsap trust me. I have been a homer for him since he got here. I actually had him as one of my sleepers before the Jazz even drafted him. I knew he was going to be a steal in the draft. I thought he was a later first round pick. Blew me away we got him.
I just know next year in the playoffs when we are playing a tough team. And Jefferson or Favors are in foul trouble and we have rely on Millsap down the stretch one game against the Lakers or Mavericks or Thunder etc we will get beat on the boards and stoping people from getting to the hoop.
Jefferson can contest shots and at least make someone think twice about going into the paint. Favors seems to already have a knack for it. Millsap doesn't stop anyone. He gets lucky on weak side blocks every once in awhile. I would rather have a 3 man rotation where we always have size to stop penetration rather than a guy who is a crafty scorer and a hard worker.

No teams run the offense through the PF spot the way the Jazz do.
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Jefferson is worthless for help defense, the only blocks he gets are on the man he is guarding. He has terrible instincts and recovery time. This is why Minnesota traded him for scraps, he was not a viable center. If Jefferson was a good defensive player, he wouldn't have such a disastrous defensive rating and +/- rating year after year after year. Being a little out of shape has a lot to do with it. The good news is he is hitting the gym hard this summer.
 
Twin Towers said:
Comments like yours make you lose all credibility because you use insults rather than arguing the points I make. Or bringing up other points to prove me wrong.
But I am sure it makes you feel really good to criticize someone while providing no substance to the discussion. Good Job! ;)
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No insult intended. I was just sharing my opinion of your opinion. Because thats all you have given so far with the "points" you have made. That you have an opinion. I disagree with your opinion, thats all.
 
Jazz4ever said:
Jefferson is worthless for help defense, the only blocks he gets are on the man he is guarding. He has terrible instincts and recovery time. This is why Minnesota traded him for scraps, he was not a viable center. If Jefferson was a good defensive player, he wouldn't have such a disastrous defensive rating and +/- rating year after year after year. Being a little out of shape has a lot to do with it. The good news is he is hitting the gym hard this summer.
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There are reports that he's been working hard on his game & body. KOC apparently told him to get faster & jump higher.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's back a lot better than he has been previously.

I think he knows it's on him that the Jazz becomes successful and he's getting to that point where he knows that if he doesn't change - eventually nobody would want him.

I think he has the potential to be a very good player - if he's not too damn lazy to work for it.
 
Millsap is really good but he does have his warts. I have yet to hear a trade that brings back equal value (at least my perception of it) but maybe Millsap's value in the league isn't as high as I thought.

I understand what TT's saying. Still don't know the best value for Millsap but Bismack + assets sounds like a gamble that might rake in a huge pot. It might not though and I think that's why people are reacting so vehemently to it.
 
Dwill_PwnasaurasRex said:
I wasn't comparing a single move, I was just using it as an example. Millsap has a ton of offensive moves. To say he only scores when he is setup would be dead wrong. You don't have repeated 25+ point games solely on being set up. He is so much better than Bass it's not even close.
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Again I never said he ONLY scores when we set him up. But the majority of the time they are set up for him. I would say only 20 percent of his shots are not set up for him. That is my observation of watching him and every other power forward the jazz have had since Malone. Maybe it is a little more but Millsap would not average 17 points per game on a team where they just gave him the ball in the post every once in awhile the way all of the other undersized PF's have to score in the league.
 
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