Hayward's Woes

[enchilada_style]

Wow, a 7 page thread on Hayward's woes.... yet you chant "We don't miss you a FT line for him"

Awful lot of attention for not missing someone .... just sayin'

I think it is entirely possible to give it attention while still not missing him.

 

[JimLes]

Damn, I knew Rudy was awesome, but that's a great post, what a list! And to do that with just a 17.4 usage rate is actually staggering, no chance any other name on that list had one that low.

Just a cursory look at other players turned up only one with a usage% under 30, and it was one of Robinson's seasons when he was at 29. If Rudy keeps this up and finishes top, it'll be historic. Only one of the players on that list has never won an MVP and that's Paul. He finished second in 2008 and I think he really did deserve it more than Kobe that year.

Either way, it's like you said, staggering. Every other player on that list was a "give me the ball and watch me win games." Rudy is "give the other team the ball and watch me win games." There's only one player in NBA history that I can think of that you can say was that way.

 

[fishonjazz]

I think it is entirely possible to give it attention while still not missing him.

This.
Also, this thread has turned into a Rudy thread.

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[elan_prodigy]

Wow dude really?

Do you know the history of Len Bias? Do you know he was a 1st rounder with LeBron like buzz when he came out?

Do you also realize that Nike got sued by the Beatles label because they released a shoe called Revolution, made thousands of them and had to rebrand them which created the opening for MJ? It is very, very possible that Len Bias playing for one of the two biggest franshises in the NBA would have been the poster boy.

But he died and the rest is history...



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He also liked to **** around with drugs.. who knows what the bright lights would have done to him. Talented sure but to say he woulda been MJ is ****ing stupid.

 

[elan_prodigy]

Who is giving up picks for 32 Million per for the next 2 and a half years of Gordon Hayward? List any two moron teams. . .

They couldnt predict he was gonna break his leg. If he was healthy of course hes worth 2 1sts.

 

[JimLes]

This.
Also, this thread has turned into a Rudy thread.

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All threads eventually turn into Rudy threads. Something to do with laws of thermodynamics, I think.

 

[fishonjazz]

Seriously though, I'm blown away by that win shares stat that Jim posted.

You look at that list of guys who led the league in win shares and I would guess that the majority of them were mvp's of that season. I'm pretty certain all of them were at least top 3 player in the NBA that season.

So is Rudy a top 3 player? I think most everyone would say not even close, but that stat makes ya have to wonder. Would Rudy be the first and only player to lead the league in win shares and not be considered a top 3 guy? If so, why? Is he even considered top 10 by most? I doubt it. Most under rated player in the NBA.

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[JimLes]

Wanna hear a crazy thing? It's not a anomaly. In 2016-2017, last time Rudy played a full season, this was the order of top 10 players by win-shares:

1. Harden
2. Rudy
3. Butler
4. Kawhi
5. Westbrook
6. LeBron
7. KAT
8. Curry
9. IT
10. Giannis

Here's some more advanced stats. Rudy's on-off net per 100 possessions is +10.2. James Harden? +6.1. The other James? +8.7. You think the Lakers suck without LeBron? We should all perform animal sacrifice to appease the NBA injury gods and keep them away from #27. And you wanna hear a dirty secret? Nikola Jokić is -1.1.

So @fishonjazz, maybe the question shouldn't be if he's top 3 right now? Maybe it should be whether he's been top 3 for a few years now.

 

[JimLes]

And since I can't stop talking about Rudy because he's a godsend, here's another tidbit. Obviously, stats of any kind are contextual. For example, Rudy's on-off is gaudy, but there are players with better ones. Durant, Curry, and Draymond have ones that are twice that, but it has to do with what happens when they sit. Rudy's replacements are Derrick and occasionally Ekpe. Warriors bench is NBA's very own Bad News Bears. Of course the drop-off will be massive.

But win shares, as people have pointed out, seem to align with who the best players in the league here. So here's one more stat for tonight. Rudy had 14.3 winshares in 2017. Here are the players who've had more winshares than that in a season, while averaging under 15PPG like Rudy. It's not a long list and it's not very recent, either.

https://www.basketball-reference.co...stat=pts_per_g&c2comp=lt&c2val=15&order_by=ws

 

[Thee Jazz Fan]

Seriously though, I'm blown away by that win shares stat that Jim posted.

You look at that list of guys who led the league in win shares and I would guess that the majority of them were mvp's of that season. I'm pretty certain all of them were at least top 3 player in the NBA that season.

So is Rudy a top 3 player? I think most everyone would say not even close, but that stat makes ya have to wonder. Would Rudy be the first and only player to lead the league in win shares and not be considered a top 3 guy? If so, why? Is he even considered top 10 by most? I doubt it. Most under rated player in the NBA.

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I’m on record somewhere, don’t remember, that he’s top 7 at the very least. After reading all that stuff right above this post, I think even I’m underrating him. Too bad we didn’t just draft Gobert and the freak of Greek dissent. Hell, Hayward might still be here, and I’m sure Denver would’ve still traded us Mitchell. Lololololol

 

[Ron Mexico]

Win Shares per 48 minutes has Gobert at #3 behind Giannis and Anthony Davis. But FYI Favors is #15 in the league.

Also Rudy is #2 Offensive rating. Favors is #19. Rudy is 3rd in Defensive Rating and Favors is #7. Gobert is #1 in net rating and Favors is in the top 5. In Box +/- Gobert is #1, Favors is #20.

Gobert is a top 10 player in the NBA. Favors is a really good player. I think he is a top 12 Center in the NBA.

 

[JimLes]

Gobert is a top 10 player in the NBA. Favors is a really good player. I think he is a top 12 Center in the NBA.

And this is why advanced stats are the poop. Especially the ones that basically ask "what happens to the score of the game when you're on the floor." Put Favors on a lottery team and tell him wins don't matter and to get his, and he's a 20-10 player. Easily. And people would be talking about how he's great but teammates are holding him back. Or some variant of that narrative. If you're top 25 in any advanced category, it matters zilch what your basic stats are. You win games. Simple as that.

I used to think advanced stats were bunk, especially when it was just PER and a couple of others. I've seen the light. PER is still bunk, to a large degree, though.

The season is long. If you play anything over 1500 minutes, trends will make themselves obvious.