Jon Stewart on white privilege (cc: unnamed posters... etc.)

[Stoked]

Perhaps many of the posters in here don't, but if kneeling during the national anthem is creating apoplexy, then I find it unlikely the apoplectic understand there is an ongoing problem.

Why? They’re not mutually exclusive.

One can still understand x and find y offensive.

 

[One Brow]

Why? They’re not mutually exclusive.

One can still understand x and find y offensive.

Apoplexy is a little stronger than taking mild offense. I agree with what you said, but that's why I wanted to emphasize those that had extreme reactions.

 

[Stoked]

Apoplexy is a little stronger than taking mild offense. I agree with what you said, but that's why I wanted to emphasize those that had extreme reactions.

Ah, ok. Fair enough. Offense and apoplexy are indeed different.

But it’s still possible in special situations, like a grieving parent of a dead marine. But extreme cases do not equal the norm.

Objection withdrawn.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

If only black people would realize the their true friends are the people who blame black people for not being more successful.

I understand that your SJW college professor instilled a strong sense of White guilt in you, but that doesn't mean you have to try and convince everyone you meet in life that White people are evil. The only blaming going on is the notion of White privilege, which blames White people for the relative lack of prosperity of certain racial or ethic groups (notice it's not all groups, as several racial groups are more prosperous than Whites, such as Asians).

My suggestion to any White person that wants to gain some perspective on White privilege is to speak to a Black friend about it. Have an honest and open conversation with them about it. I doubt most people have actually done this. I have had this conversation twice (both work friends). Their insight has molded my opinions on the topic.

 

[One Brow]

I understand that your SJW college professor instilled a strong sense of White guilt in you,

Don't play that game with me, youngster. My fourth child is going to college next year, and I did not start early.

I don't need to feel guilty in order to feel empathy, anger at injustice, or a desire to improve the world for other people. Honestly, I kind of feel sad for you that you think the only reason people try to make things better is a sense of guilt. What a cut-off, insular, parochial way to live.

Of course, perhaps you don't like being shallowly characterized by some random internet person. Sauce for the gander.

but that doesn't mean you have to try and convince everyone you meet in life that White people are evil.

I really have to wonder why you think I am saying white people are evil, and why you are so focused on guilt. Projection, perhaps?

Also, why did you capitalize "White" in that sentence, and in the previous sentence? When did "White" become a proper adjective, like "French"?

The only blaming going on is the notion of White privilege, which blames White people for the relative lack of prosperity of certain racial or ethic groups (notice it's not all groups, as several racial groups are more prosperous than Whites, such as Asians).

If you really want to emphasize that you are not a racist, perhaps you should stop using racist tropes like "model minority". Asians in the US are more prosperous because, overall, we have taken in more prosperous Asians. They still get negatively affected by racism once here.

My suggestion to any White person that wants to gain some perspective on White privilege is to speak to a Black friend about it. Have an honest and open conversation with them about it. I doubt most people have actually done this. I have had this conversation twice (both work friends). Their insight has molded my opinions on the topic.

No doubt that a white person who tells other black people that black people are responsible for the effects of racism, thinks the terms "white" and "black" are proper nouns, and doesn't make an effort to understand how racist social policy affects the percentage of two-parent homes is in a perfect position to interpret the comments of black work-mates.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

Don't play that game with me, youngster. My fourth child is going to college next year, and I did not start early.

Ah. Resorting to name calling. Clearly you have no actual arguments.

No doubt that a white person who tells other black people that black people are responsible for the effects of racism, thinks the terms "white" and "black" are proper nouns, and doesn't make an effort to understand how racist social policy affects the percentage of two-parent homes is in a perfect position to interpret the comments of black work-mates.

I will take this to mean that you've never actually had a conversation about this topic with a black person. I would suggest taking that bold leap before you try and solve problems faced by African-Americans. Try it! Expand your social circle outside of your white bubble.

Or you can just keep using straw man arguments, criticizing capitalization, and making assumptions about people online.

 

[One Brow]

Ah. Resorting to name calling. Clearly you have no actual arguments.

Wow, that's kind of sad. One post after you claim I'm some college kid, you refer to to saying someone is young as an insult, and say I have no argument. So, I simply must hear this. What's the appropriate way to respond to someone claiming you are a college kid who is only repeating what a professor told you? I'm all abuzz.

I will take this to mean that you've never actually had a conversation about this topic with a black person.

Will you? What an interesting assumption. You seem to know so much about the life of some guy whose picture you have in your head.

I would suggest taking that bold leap before you try and solve problems faced by African-Americans. Try it! Expand your social circle outside of your white bubble.

Me, solve the problems faced by black people all on my own, without their input? I had no idea I was so arrogant and powerful.

Or you can just keep using straw man arguments, criticizing capitalization, and making assumptions about people online.

You know, throwing around logical fallacies like "straw man" without understanding them is just going to lead to more embarrassment on your part. I was not criticizing your capitalization, but asking you to examine your reasons for thinking it was appropriate. As for assumptions, as I said, sauce for the gander.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

Wow, that's kind of sad. One post after you claim I'm some college kid, you refer to to saying someone is young as an insult, and say I have no argument.

You are inferring things that I never implied. When did I ever call you "Some college kid"? Plenty of adults (of all ages) have been instructed by far-left liberals that push their social ideas on students. It was a comment on that system, not on you personally.

Me, solve the problems faced by black people all on my own, without their input? I had no idea I was so arrogant and powerful.

Again, I would recommend having that conversation with someone you know. If you do and that person communicates to you the importance of white people accepting their inherent privilege, I would honestly be open hearing about their perspective.

As for assumptions, as I said, sauce for the gander.

Well, no one is going to confuse you with "some college kid" when you say things like that.

Clearly we see this topic extremely differently. I would like to give some insight into my perspective. I have a semi-close work friend that communicated to me that, as a black man, hates the term "white privilege." He actually asked me to not use the term. He feels that the term diminishes black people's accomplishments and takes away personal responsibility from those that don't succeed (however that is measured). He did open my eyes about some real problems in our country that disproportionately affect black Americans (you have me questioning what to capitalize and what not to capitalize now......I have no idea). He definitely changed my mind on several topics, such as over-incarceration, the war on drugs, among other things. He didn't feel that these issues warranted promulgating white privilege, as every race, sex, religion, age, etc. will experience different types of privilege.

I wish I could recall everything we talked about, but he expressed to me that he felt the notion of white privilege does a lot more harm than good to black people.

After having the conversation with him, how could I in good conscious, try to promulgate the idea of white privilege?

I recognize that this is anecdotal. It most certainly does not reflect the thoughts of all black people.

 

[One Brow]

You are inferring things that I never implied. When did I ever call you "Some college kid"? Plenty of adults (of all ages) have been instructed by far-left liberals that push their social ideas on students. It was a comment on that system, not on you personally.

You could have been honest and acknowledged an error. Instead, you doubled down, again.

Talking to me, you said "your SJW college professor". Having gone to a Marianist college in the early 1980s, I can assure you I had no professor you would recognize as being SJWs. Although, one of my philosophy professors now calls himself The Maverick Philosopher. Perhaps you should go tell him that you think he's an SJW.

Again, I would recommend having that conversation with someone you know. If you do and that person communicates to you the importance of white people accepting their inherent privilege, I would honestly be open hearing about their perspective.

So, to be clear, you have the writings of Coates, Jabbar, the entire staff at The Root, etc. to look at, but when some random internet guy reports back on his conversation with a person, that's what will convince you?

Well, no one is going to confuse you with "some college kid" when you say things like that.

Usually, its the white/translucent hair.

Clearly we see this topic extremely differently. I would like to give some insight into my perspective. I have a semi-close work friend that communicated to me that, as a black man, hates the term "white privilege." He actually asked me to not use the term. He feels that the term diminishes black people's accomplishments and takes away personal responsibility from those that don't succeed (however that is measured). He did open my eyes about some real problems in our country that disproportionately affect black Americans (you have me questioning what to capitalize and what not to capitalize now......I have no idea). He definitely changed my mind on several topics, such as over-incarceration, the war on drugs, among other things. He didn't feel that these issues warranted promulgating white privilege, as every race, sex, religion, age, etc. will experience different types of privilege.

There are certainly black people that feel this way. Sometimes it's because they don't understand the terminology very well (for example, the notion of white privilege would enhance a black person's accomplishments, not diminish it), sometimes its a genuine viewpoint difference. I will certainly not try to tell him what his experience has been.

However, just from your description, and the past posting you have made, I would guess he is making the same sort of definition error that your quote from Prager U made. There is no privilege trump card. Privileges intersect and interact, and noting white privilege exists does nothing to take away from male, Christian, able-bodied, etc. privilege.

After having the conversation with him, how could I in good conscious, try to promulgate the idea of white privilege?

I can respect you not wishing to promulgate. How about you just refrain from advertising false notions of what white privilege means, such as the stuff from Dennis Prager?

 

[JazzGal]

White privilege has nothing to do with success. Ugh! This concept isn't nearly as hard as many of you are making it out to be.

My minority friends are not offended by the term at all, because they see it every day of their lives. They don't use it as some sort of excuse, but they know that they are treated differently in many situations in their lives. Some minor recent examples are: being pulled over by the police for not looking like they belong in certain neighborhoods, having people refuse to sit at a table next to them in a restaurant, being followed in stores by security. I have never had any of these situations happen to me, and it would never cross my mind that it could happen. And that is my white privilege. There are many things that my minority friends endure that will likely never happen to me because of the color of my skin. They are things I never have to think about. White privilege has nothing to do with whether my life is successful or not. It has nothing to do with guilt. It actually has nothing to do with anything I do. It just is.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

You could have been honest and acknowledged an error. Instead, you doubled down, again.

You know I was making a joke about the SJW college professor. Clearly I don't know anything about what your college professors were like.

So, to be clear, you have the writings of Coates, Jabbar, the entire staff at The Root, etc. to look at, but when some random internet guy reports back on his conversation with a person, that's what will convince you?

I don't know if it will convince me, but I would be interested in hearing about it. You just keep dancing around my question. If you haven't had that conversation, so be it. I just think it adds perspective. Korver had that dialogue, and came away with different feelings/messages than I did.

However, just from your description, and the past posting you have made, I would guess he is making the same sort of definition error that your quote from Prager U made. There is no privilege trump card. Privileges intersect and interact, and noting white privilege exists does nothing to take away from male, Christian, able-bodied, etc. privilege.

I recognize that there are a variety of different privileges. When the privilege relates to a "yes" or "no" question (White or Black, Male or Female, etc.), there are different privileges that go both ways. Do women not have any inherent privileges over men? Do Hispanics have any inherent privileges over Asians? If there are a variety of different privileges that go both ways, why is there such a strong media push for people to recognize white privilege?

Is being raised in a specific culture a privilege? Do certain cultures tend to instill values in youth that lead to more prosperous lives in 2019? (I don't know the answer to this).

Any articles that clearly define how recognizing white privilege will have a positive impact on the lives of black people? If there are I would like to read them. (not sarcasm, I would genuinely like to read and put some thought into it).

 

[Eminence]

Recognizing you have a problem is step #1 in pretty much any problem solving process.

 

[Keefe]

White privilege has nothing to do with success. Ugh! This concept isn't nearly as hard as many of you are making it out to be.

My minority friends are not offended by the term at all, because they see it every day of their lives. They don't use it as some sort of excuse, but they know that they are treated differently in many situations in their lives. Some minor recent examples are: being pulled over by the police for not looking like they belong in certain neighborhoods, having people refuse to sit at a table next to them in a restaurant, being followed in stores by security. I have never had any of these situations happen to me, and it would never cross my mind that it could happen. And that is my white privilege. There are many things that my minority friends endure that will likely never happen to me because of the color of my skin. They are things I never have to think about. White privilege has nothing to do with whether my life is successful or not. It has nothing to do with guilt. It actually has nothing to do with anything I do. It just is.

Very well said.

 

[One Brow]

I don't know if it will convince me, but I would be interested in hearing about it. You just keep dancing around my question. If you haven't had that conversation, so be it. I just think it adds perspective. Korver had that dialogue, and came away with different feelings/messages than I did.

I had many of those conversations when I was younger. I grew up in a mixed-race neighborhood.

Nowadays, I have basically two full-time jobs and a wife who requires a lot of my attention, so I don't really have any close friends.

I recognize that there are a variety of different privileges. When the privilege relates to a "yes" or "no" question (White or Black, Male or Female, etc.), there are different privileges that go both ways. Do women not have any inherent privileges over men?

Such as?

Do Hispanics have any inherent privileges over Asians?

By which you mean?

If there are a variety of different privileges that go both ways, why is there such a strong media push for people to recognize white privilege?

It's a strong economic advantage.

Is being raised in a specific culture a privilege? Do certain cultures tend to instill values in youth that lead to more prosperous lives in 2019? (I don't know the answer to this).

Learning certain patterns of speech and pronunciation within a culture can provide privilege. Most cultures in the US tend to instill the same values in their young people, AFAICT.

Any articles that clearly define how recognizing white privilege will have a positive impact on the lives of black people? If there are I would like to read them. (not sarcasm, I would genuinely like to read and put some thought into it).

Some ideas at the end of this article:
https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/fall-2018/what-is-white-privilege-really

Some examples here:
https://www2.bostonglobe.com/opinio...ight-racism/l3kE21EFsMpTF6uboe72pI/story.html

I don't think there are going to be any government programs or laws that move us in the right direction. It's going to have to come from people who try to correct it and call it out when it happens around them.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

Such as?

I can't tell if you are sincerely asking this question or attempting to goad me into saying something interpreted as being offensive. Either way, I'll list a few........

Women are widely considered to have greater emotional intelligence than men.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/victor...m-men-in-emotional-intelligence/#512175d2335d

The public school system and education in general is designed to better fit the learning style of girls rather than boys.
https://dailycollegian.com/2018/04/schools-are-designed-more-for-girls-than-for-boys/

Women are less likely to receive a ticket when pulled over for a traffic stop.
https://www.courant.com/news/connec...less-traffic-tickets-than-men-0309-story.html

Women live longer.
Women are less likely to die in a workplace accident.
Men have higher rates of suicide.
Women are not required to register for the draft.

Most cultures in the US tend to instill the same values in their young people, AFAICT.

Ask a first generation Chinese-American about the emphasis their parents place on education over all other activities (athletics, dating, recreation). Ask a person from a devout Mormon family the emphasis their family places on getting married or genealogy. Cultures are different, and that's okay.

Some ideas at the end of this article:
https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/fall-2018/what-is-white-privilege-really

Some examples here:
https://www2.bostonglobe.com/opinio...ight-racism/l3kE21EFsMpTF6uboe72pI/story.html

Thanks for sharing these. Read them both. I enjoyed a lot of the thoughts and ideas of the first article. I wasn't a huge fan of the Boston Globe article, but I won't get into that.
The first article made some good points about home-ownership and how coming from a family that owns a home can be substantially beneficial (inheritance). Many black families were denied this opportunity after WWII due to a combination of terrible people and terrible regulations. While much of these regulations (and hopefully some of the terrible people) have improved, many black today likely would be better off had their ancestors not been denied this opportunity. It's a good point. Lots of other good points as well in the article.

The example of white products being more available in stores seems a off base to me. Any business person is going to tell you that these setups are to maximize profits. Factually, there are more white people in this country. In a market economy, there are plenty of stores that caters to non-white people and carry the associated products. I don't think any white people would have a problem with that.

I also disagree with the following quote:

We have more access to information created by people of color than ever before. Take advantage of it, and avoid burdening friends or coworkers of color with constant questions about their experiences.

I don't think we should ever discourage discourse on this topic. Are white people burdening friends with questions on race? Come on.

I don't think there are going to be any government programs or laws that move us in the right direction. It's going to have to come from people who try to correct it and call it out when it happens around them.

We agree 100% here. However, I don't think someone needs be familiar with or agree with the use of the term in order to be an advocate for equality of all people. Most of the listed benefits of "recognizing" white privilege all can be performed completely independent of that. I can research, I can talk to others, I can stand up for equality, I can listen to others and speak out when appropriate, and I can risk my personal privileges to stand up for others. I hope we all do these things regardless of how we feel about the use of the term being discussed.

 

[One Brow]

I can't tell if you are sincerely asking this question or attempting to goad me into saying something interpreted as being offensive. Either way, I'll list a few........

Women are widely considered to have greater emotional intelligence than men.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/victor...m-men-in-emotional-intelligence/#512175d2335d

This is how women are socialized, and jobs that emphasize emotional intelligence over STEM abilities that men are socialized into tend to pay much less. This is an example of how men are privileged.

The public school system and education in general is designed to better fit the learning style of girls rather than boys.
https://dailycollegian.com/2018/04/schools-are-designed-more-for-girls-than-for-boys/

Again, women are socialized from a young age to be less physical, and the rewards tend to pay less than the physicality of me.

Women are less likely to receive a ticket when pulled over for a traffic stop.
https://www.courant.com/news/connec...less-traffic-tickets-than-men-0309-story.html

You got one.

Women live longer.

In part because they are discouraged from dangerous, higher-paying jobs.

Women are less likely to die in a workplace accident.

Ditto.

Men have higher rates of suicide.

Greater expectations and advantages mean more suicides.

Women are not required to register for the draft.

In part because they are discouraged from dangerous, higher-paying jobs.

Ask a first generation Chinese-American about the emphasis their parents place on education over all other activities (athletics, dating, recreation). Ask a person from a devout Mormon family the emphasis their family places on getting married or genealogy. Cultures are different, and that's okay.

You have gone from "values" to "emphasis".

The example of white products being more available in stores seems a off base to me. Any business person is going to tell you that these setups are to maximize profits. Factually, there are more white people in this country. In a market economy, there are plenty of stores that caters to non-white people and carry the associated products. I don't think any white people would have a problem with that.

So, you are saying the privilege is OK in this instance?

I also disagree with the following quote:

We have more access to information created by people of color than ever before. Take advantage of it, and avoid burdening friends or coworkers of color with constant questions about their experiences.

I don't think we should ever discourage discourse on this topic. Are white people burdening friends with questions on race? Come on.

Yes, that happens. When you get the same questions from 10 different people, it gets tiresome.

 

[Zombie]

So, you are saying the privilege is OK in this instance?

Of course. In a market economy profits trump everything else.



/s

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

This is how women are socialized, and jobs that emphasize emotional intelligence over STEM abilities that men are socialized into tend to pay much less. This is an example of how men are privileged.

By and large, men and women inherently are interested in different things. Socialization is not what is driving women to want to work as nurses, teachers, and social workers........biology is. Read Jordan Peterson on this topic, who is a clinical psychologist that has done a lot of work researching the biological differences between men and women. I have a young daughter, and no matter how much I try and encourage her to consider technology or finance as a profession, she still tells me she want to be a veterinarian because she likes taking care of animals. She was not socialized into this preference.

Again, women are socialized from a young age to be less physical, and the rewards tend to pay less than the physicality of me.

In part because they are discouraged from dangerous, higher-paying jobs.

Greater expectations and advantages mean more suicides.

In part because they are discouraged from dangerous, higher-paying jobs.

Wow, men are so lucky to be socialized into physical, dangerous, death inducing, high expectation, suicidal professions. If that's considered privilege I think I'll take a pass on it.

So, you are saying the privilege is OK in this instance?

I'm saying that it's not an actual privilege. When I walked into a barber shop catered to black men, as a teenager, and was told that they were sorry but they don't know how to cut white hair, it didn't bother me. It still doesn't today. I just found another place to get my hair cut.

 

[Zombie]

Read Jordan Peterson on this topic

This explains so much.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

This explains so much.

Reading him or my crazy views?