Getting CP3 and Granger

[Gyp Rosetti]

I would take Holiday right now too but that does not mean that he is better than Harris. Projection and actuality are two very different things.

Well he had more assists and rebounds than Harris last year and shot better percentages as well. Add in the fact that he just turned 21 less than a month ago and it's a no-brainer. Everyone talks about Collison on this board but Holiday is an infinitely better player.

The point is Harris is not a top 10 point guard and is pretty much average at best. When you add in other guys like Kidd, Andre Miller, Collison, Jennings, and a couple others, it appears Devin is about as average as you get. I'm not saying he's worse than those players but he's not done much to separate himself from those guys.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Kyrie Irving, no NBA games played, hardly any in college, already top 10 NBA PG? What are you, the guy's agent?

Jrue Holiday - 14 pts, 6 assts, 4 rebs
Devin Harris - 16 pts, 5 assts, 3 rebs

I don't think Harris is top 10 but neither are your last 2. If you can't come up with someone proven or has shown he is better than Harris, then maybe he does belong in that group.

Maybe, but Holiday just finished his second season, and had significantly better shooting percentages across the board than the guy that just finished his seventh season. He's also seven years younger.

Here's the PER rankings from last year for PGs:

1 Chris Paul 23.76
2 Russell Westbrook 23.63
3 Derrick Rose 23.62
4 Deron Williams 21.19
5 Steve Nash 20.81
6 Tony Parker 20.44
7 Stephen Curry 19.46
8 Ramon Sessions 19.01
9 Lou Williams 18.93
10 Chauncey Billups 18.78
11 Rodney Stuckey 18.46
12 Ty Lawson 17.99
13 Andre Miller 17.89
14 Earl Boykins 17.62
15 Devin Harris 17.22
16 Rajon Rondo 17.11
17 Baron Davis 17.05
18 Raymond Felton 16.68
19 Kyle Lowry 16.51
20 Jose Calderon 16.38

PER is just an indicator, but I think it's a relatively strong one. I don't know about some of the guys above Harris, but I'd definitely choose some guys below him for the rebuild as well (Holiday is a great example, as is Darren Collison).

If Harris is top-10, it's on the more subjective side of assessment, and it's being generous.

 

[somebody]

1 Chris Paul 23.76
2 Russell Westbrook 23.63
3 Derrick Rose 23.62
4 Deron Williams 21.19
5 Steve Nash 20.81
6 Tony Parker 20.44
7 Stephen Curry 19.46
8 Ramon Sessions 19.01
9 Lou Williams 18.93
10 Chauncey Billups 18.78
11 Rodney Stuckey 18.46
12 Ty Lawson 17.99
13 Andre Miller 17.89
14 Earl Boykins 17.62
15 Devin Harris 17.22
16 Rajon Rondo 17.11
17 Baron Davis 17.05
18 Raymond Felton 16.68
19 Kyle Lowry 16.51
20 Jose Calderon 16.38

Anyone notice who's not on that list?

Jason Kidd and Jose Barea.

There is, by some posters here, a bizarre and undying urge to upgrade Devin Harris, and I don't understand it.

 

[Chad Feldheimer]

I really really hate that deal. 1 year rental for Paul and we get nothing else while giving away Millsap, Hayward and a 1st round pick. Are you a Hornets fan?

Not at all. I wouldn't trade for Chris Paul if I were the Jazz unless it was a no brainer deal (like that assortment of average players proposed above, which the Hornets would immediately reject).Just putting up there for kicks and giggles. That's probably what you would have to give up to get him. Jazz were too afraid to lose a lot with DWill they traded him. I doubt they'd try that again with Chris Paul.

 

[NUMBERICA]

Anyone notice who's not on that list?

Jason Kidd and Jose Barea.

There is, by some posters here, a bizarre and undying urge to upgrade Devin Harris, and I don't understand it.

Yeah, why would you want to upgrade from a guy that is tickling 30, never made a team better, and was basically mediocre last year? Just silly.

 

[gregbroncs]

Not at all. I wouldn't trade for Chris Paul if I were the Jazz unless it was a no brainer deal (like that assortment of average players proposed above, which the Hornets would immediately reject).Just putting up there for kicks and giggles. That's probably what you would have to give up to get him. Jazz were too afraid to lose a lot with DWill they traded him. I doubt they'd try that again with Chris Paul.

I agree. Getting Paul at this stage is suicide for this team. They would have to trade most of the talent they have to get him then he will just leave because this team is not better than the NO team he would be leaving.

 

[LogGrad98]

Well he had more assists and rebounds than Harris last year and shot better percentages as well. Add in the fact that he just turned 21 less than a month ago and it's a no-brainer. Everyone talks about Collison on this board but Holiday is an infinitely better player.

The point is Harris is not a top 10 point guard and is pretty much average at best. When you add in other guys like Kidd, Andre Miller, Collison, Jennings, and a couple others, it appears Devin is about as average as you get. I'm not saying he's worse than those players but he's not done much to separate himself from those guys.

Agree whole-heartedly that Harris is not a top 10 PG, but he is a proven quantity. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't, especially when our odds of getting a top 10 PG to replace him are pretty long.

But to put a second year player who has yet to prove anything and a rookie who has yet to play a game in your top 10 makes the list suspect. Kidd, Miller or even Collison or Jennings belong there over Irving and Holiday, imo, right now. That might change as those 2 play, but they sure as hell haven't earned a top 10 spot yet.

 

[somebody]

Yeah, why would you want to upgrade from a guy that is tickling 30, never made a team better, and was basically mediocre last year? Just silly.

One could make much the same objections about Kidd when he was in New Jersey. Jazz fans want the John Stockton / Deron Williams super-point guard trend to continue, but it's completely unnecessary especially when you can use our assets to make our team deeper and more well-rounded instead of dressing our point guard in gold. Notice who was right below Devin Harris on that list: Rajon Rondo.

 

[Postman11]

How about this trade. Maybe throw one of the picks in to make it work.
https://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=3hdg7m3

We get the PG of the future who can distribute and shoot the 3.
We have a "player of the future" at every position after this.

 

[JudasJ]

I dont know why people have been so quick to write of Harris. Sure theres no way hes a top 10 pg, but his contract isn't ridiculous and he is still above average and imo at the top of the second tier pgs. I do think that Holiday, Collison, Stuckey, and maybe Lowry? are perfect fits for this whole new youth movement for the jazz. If they could somehow swing a big man and devin harris for maybe collison and granger or holiday and iggy (although his contract sorta sucks) the jazz would definitely come out ahead imo.

 

[Gyp Rosetti]

Agree whole-heartedly that Harris is not a top 10 PG, but he is a proven quantity. Sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't, especially when our odds of getting a top 10 PG to replace him are pretty long.

Proven to be pretty average. Seriously, what's he proven?

But to put a second year player who has yet to prove anything and a rookie who has yet to play a game in your top 10 makes the list suspect. Yet to prove anything? Philly made the playoffs as the 5th seed, largely due to Holiday's play. What has Collison done? He made it too but had far inferior numbers to Holiday's despite being three years older. Jennings? The kid can't shoot to save his life and leaves a lot to be desired as a point guard. Kidd and Miller I can live with but I ommitted them purposefully based on their age and lack of upside...but I understood that they and some other players could slide into my top 10 or just out of it, either way, ahead of Harris...hence why I asked him if he needed me to go on. Kidd, Miller or even Collison or Jennings belong there over Irving and Holiday, imo, right now. That might change as those 2 play, but they sure as hell haven't earned a top 10 spot yet.

Keep in mind that I named 11 guys I myself and I think the far majority of NBA GM's would choose over Harris. I said that originally. Does this make them better? Probably not. But that's like comparing Martin Gortat to Derrick Favors. One's proven himself to be a solid center in this league while one has proven nothing. But the likelihood that the latter surpasses Gortat's is very high and every single NBA GM would want Favors over him. The likelihood in my opinion that Irving becomes a far superior player to Harris is a lock imo and I think every single GM would pick him over Harris. Has he proven nothing? Sure, I suppose but it wouldn't surprise me if he's a better point guard this year already, rookie or not. Holiday already is better imo.

 

[NUMBERICA]

One could make much the same objections about Kidd when he was in New Jersey.

You mean the guy that led them to consecutive finals appearances? Yeah, my mistake.

Jazz fans want the John Stockton / Deron Williams super-point guard trend to continue, but it's completely unnecessary especially when you can use our assets to make our team deeper and more well-rounded instead of dressing our point guard in gold.

Holy ****ing straw-man argument. Care to show me who has said that or when?

Notice who was right below Devin Harris on that list: Rajon Rondo.

Perfect. One of the most overrated players that I can recall. Rhetorical question: What has he done that wasn't contingent on some of the HOF-ers around him?


Harris isn't a bad player and I don't have a fundamental objection to him as a player or a person. On a contender stocked with shooters (say, the Mavericks), he'd be great. On a rebuilding team where there are no reliable shooters, he's basically the oldest player, and having a game that won't age well (assuming he remains the player he's been, which he has been his whole career with exception to a spike in '08-'09), it's a waste of time.