El Paso Shooting

[Deleted member 365]

Texas Senator John Coryn just a few weeks ago:



And we act surprised that a fellow Texan reacted violently to Coryn's white supremacist message? What was John trying to accomplish with that tweet anyway? Has anyone here answered that? @JazzyFresh, what do you think?

Trump a few months ago:



Collection of Trump's greatest hits:



Tucker Carlson flirting with Trump:



Can we find President Obama making similar inflammatory statements? Warren? So why are we conflating Obama/Warren with Trump and the GOP's obsession with white supremacy? Seems pretty desperate @JazzyFresh

Let's be clear on this, all shooters have some political affiliation or views, just as everyone does. But the key question is whether those views influenced the shooter to carry out a terrorist agenda? The El Paso shooting happened because a young man had political motives to commit white supremacist terrorism. He even left a manifesto claiming such. The manifesto was so influenced by Trump and Carlson that there have been people who have put together lines from the manifesto that the young man most likely saw used by both Trump and Carlson.



The Dayton shooter was not motivated by politics. Last I read, they believe killing his own sister might've been the primary motive.

So conflating these two shooters as one being from "the right" and the other being from "the left" seems to be yet another (desperate) attempt by those on the right to circle the wagons and drag everyone else into the extremist racist **** hole they've been rolling in for the last few years. If Republicans don't want to be in this hole maybe they shouldn't tweet racist things, give racist campaign speeches, or say racist things on Fox News. Right @JazzyFresh?

 

[Deleted member 365]

His point seems to be that we shouldn't blame the president for what he says and tweets when it appears to connect to the reasoning why some psycho kills a bunch of people.

I on the other hand think that what the president says and tweets can and does have an effect on people.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

Absolutely it does. He has the biggest megaphone.

But the leaders of his party need to change too. Has anyone been able to explain the purpose of this tweet? What's it supposed to accomplish other than incite hate and violence? @Heathme @JazzyFresh @jazzrule? Care to take this one?

 

[One Brow]

I thought your point was clear and easily understood.

I agree. It was clear and easily understood, and I understood it much the same way you did. It was just wrong.

 

[Harambe]

@red. Good points. But trump didn’t ban Muslims. He banned immigration from specific countries. There’s a very real difference. Are there some reports on him targeting all Muslims?

You'd have a helluva time making the case of intent either way. But probably harder given Trump's demonization of Obama and allegations trying to link Obama to muslims. And attacks on Omar. And quotes like this:

"Without looking at the various polling data, it is obvious to anybody the hatred is beyond comprehension. Where this hatred comes from and why we will have to determine. Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life."

Trump calling for a complete and total shutdown of muslims entering the country

The statement being on his website, and then taken down after asked about it

He has declined to apologize for incendiary comments

His brief history of Islamaphobia

The twelve times he equated his travel ban with a muslim ban

Kinda fighting an uphill battle bro.

 

[Stoked]

You'd have a helluva time making the case of intent either way. But probably harder given Trump's demonization of Obama and allegations trying to link Obama to muslims. And attacks on Omar. And quotes like this:



Trump calling for a complete and total shutdown of muslims entering the country

The statement being on his website, and then taken down after asked about it

He has declined to apologize for incendiary comments

His brief history of Islamaphobia

The twelve times he equated his travel ban with a muslim ban

Kinda fighting an uphill battle bro.

Not really. He left of many Muslim countries. Fact. If it was a Muslim ban he’d have included them.

Not saying he likes Muslims or hasn’t disparaged them. The ban wasn’t Muslim. Targeting specific countries.

 

[Zombie]

Not really. He left of many Muslim countries. Fact. If it was a Muslim ban he’d have included them.

Not saying he likes Muslims or hasn’t disparaged them. The ban wasn’t Muslim. Targeting specific countries.

A ban can target Muslims without targeting all Muslims.

 

[Stoked]

A ban can target Muslims without targeting all Muslims.

.

Lol ok.

 

[Zombie]

.

Lol ok.

I mean, if you want to curb Muslim immigration you don't have to put a blanket ban on Muslims from any country.

It was patently obvious that a ban specifically banning all Muslim immigration wasn't going to pass constitutional muster, nor a ban on all Muslim majority nations. So it's not too difficult to imagine a ban which accomplished part of that goal without going all the way.

 

[silesian]

Similarly, I don't blame Charles Manson for his follower's murders

 

[silesian]

I don’t think it’s really debatable that the ban was targeted at “muslims”. If it was Muslims he was after this is a completely idiotic way of going about that. Countries with massive Muslim populations are left off.

But then again it’s Trump and idiotic fits.

It wasn't Trump's idiocy. He wanted to score political points by banning some Muslims even though he knew he knew it would be ineffective. It's all about scoring points with his mindless minions. The wall is in the same category. He'll throw up a few miles of fence that have negligible impact and then take a photo shoot and the bigots will cream their pants.

 

[Red]

I on the other hand think that what the president says and tweets can and does have an effect on people.

Absolutely it does. He has the biggest megaphone.

There is no bigger megaphone then the one wielded by a president. And, in Trump's case, that megaphone has been in the form of tweets, more then any president before him. I remember suggesting, that if he were elected, he would govern mostly via Twitter and rallies. Hasn't quite turned out that way, executive orders have been prevalent, but Twitter and rallies have seen to it that the focus of the media has been on Trump, and to a saturated degree. But that suits him fine. (I'd love to see a week go by where the media ignores every tweet, and refuses to cover his rallies. Too bad, he snares them every time).

But do his hateful tweets and divisive rally speeches equate to an increase in hate crimes? I believe a president's words matter. If a president is scapegoating minorities with his words, then the very reach of his words, via social media, via live rallies attended by thousands, and sound bites of those rallies and tweets provided by the media, is huge. Far greater then any private citizen. Filling those tweets and rallies with hate, scapegoating, and "otherizing" Hispanics, at the very least, renders approval to those who feel the same way. It's wrong. Stop it. Don't need a direct link between Trump and El Paso. Just stop it.

But, FWIW, and both these studies must have flaws.

Do Trump tweets spur hate crimes?:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-trump-tweets-spur-hate-crimes1/

The actual study, PDF file at link:

https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3149103

And this study has come up on cable networks in recent days: hate crimes up 226% in counties that held Trump rallies during 2016 campaign:

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brie...s-rose-by-226-percent-in-counties-where-trump

 

[Red]

FBI investigating "violent ideologies" of the Dayton shooter:

https://news.google.com/articles/CA...vIaCCzDnxf4CMN2F8gU?hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en

"Dayton Police Chief Richard Biehl said his investigators have found that Betts had a "history of obsession” with violence and "had expressed a desire to commit a mass shooting."

And the FBI has now opened a domestic terrorism investigation into the Gilroy festival shooter:

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/06/7487...m-investigation-into-gilroy-festival-shooting

"Legan appeared interested in multiple violent ideologies, Bennett said. Investigators are trying to determine "what if any ideology he had actually settled on" and "who, if anyone, he may have been in contact with regarding these ideologies," Bennett said....

....A list of organizations found on the shooter's digital media, which Bennett says may have been potential targets, includes "religious institutions, federal buildings, courthouses, political organizations from both major political parties, and the Gilroy Garlic Festival."