Voter Suppression and Why The Republicans Love It So Much?

[Al-O-Meter]

The president spread what has come to be called a Big Lie. The term no doubt coined with Orwell in mind. That much happened. Somehow, the majority of the Republican base came to fully believe this lie. ... the constituents of our two major parties no longer subscribe to a consensus reality. Which is itself damaging, I believe.

YES!!! ^^This exactly!!!^^

I don’t see that as an attack on democracy so much as an attack on the legitimacy of the other. Many see the President elected in 2020 as illegitimate because of “The Big Lie”. Many on the other side viewed the President elected in 2016 as illegitimate because of “Election Interference”. I don’t know what marketing will be used to sell the idea in 2024 but if the trend continues, an even greater number of people will be taken in by this phenomenon.

It would be so much easier if we'd just say “Hey everybody! It is the craziest thing but we checked in this old document and it turns out we’re a republic. You Arizona folks can recount as many times as you want, and if Rudy wants to file a new lawsuit every day then go for it because that is just the vote. It turns out the election happens in mid-December and the democrat nominee beat the republican nominee by 306 to 232. We heard people were worried about fraud so we re-asked all 538 people and they confirmed their votes. We also asked if any were Russian spies and none of them said they were.”

With regards to the various state voting measures and the federal ones trying to stop the state voting measures, I don’t see either as doing anything to slow this race to delegitimize the other. There are things we could do but no one seems interested. The worst part is that I don’t believe there is a shadowy group doing this to us. It is just the popular thing to do so everyone is losing their minds and jumping on the bandwagon.

 

[One Brow]

Many on the other side viewed the President elected in 2016 as illegitimate because of “Election Interference”.

Could you quote some polling number that indicate this was as high as 10% of Democrats as late as January 2017?

I found this for November 2016:

In U.S., 84% Accept Trump as Legitimate President

Eighty-four percent of Americans accept Donald Trump as the legitimate president, about the same percentage who accepted George W. Bush as legitimate in December 2000.

news.gallup.com

Do you think it got worse two months later? Further, these claims were made on things like Russian media influence. I don't recall anyone claiming the ballots were miscounted.

With regards to the various state voting measures and the federal ones trying to stop the state voting measures, I don’t see either as doing anything to slow this race to delegitimize the other. There are things we could do but no one seems interested. The worst part is that I don’t believe there is a shadowy group doing this to us. It is just the popular thing to do so everyone is losing their minds and jumping on the bandwagon.

I think you are correct there.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I found this for November 2016:

In U.S., 84% Accept Trump as Legitimate President

Eighty-four percent of Americans accept Donald Trump as the legitimate president, about the same percentage who accepted George W. Bush as legitimate in December 2000.

news.gallup.com

Those numbers work for my point. In 2016 you've got 16% of Americans who thinks the President is illegitimate.

Admittedly you can quibble with these stats but doing back-of-the-napkin math, in a 2020 Gallup poll 23% of Americans identified as Republicans. Let's say a full 70% of them believe Biden is illegitimate. That makes 17.5% of Americans who think Biden is illegitimate. Personally I think the number is even higher and may be as high as 20% of Americans who believe Biden didn't legitimately win the 2020 election. That is a 4% increase from your source's numbers in one election to the next.

That is the trend concerning me, and I could easily see the next election with that rate up another 4 points regardless of which party wins.

 

[fishonjazz]

YES!!! ^^This exactly!!!^^

I don’t see that as an attack on democracy so much as an attack on the legitimacy of the other. Many see the President elected in 2020 as illegitimate because of “The Big Lie”. Many on the other side viewed the President elected in 2016 as illegitimate because of “Election Interference”. I don’t know what marketing will be used to sell the idea in 2024 but if the trend continues, an even greater number of people will be taken in by this phenomenon.

It would be so much easier if we'd just say “Hey everybody! It is the craziest thing but we checked in this old document and it turns out we’re a republic. You Arizona folks can recount as many times as you want, and if Rudy wants to file a new lawsuit every day then go for it because that is just the vote. It turns out the election happens in mid-December and the democrat nominee beat the republican nominee by 306 to 232. We heard people were worried about fraud so we re-asked all 538 people and they confirmed their votes. We also asked if any were Russian spies and none of them said they were.”

With regards to the various state voting measures and the federal ones trying to stop the state voting measures, I don’t see either as doing anything to slow this race to delegitimize the other. There are things we could do but no one seems interested. The worst part is that I don’t believe there is a shadowy group doing this to us. It is just the popular thing to do so everyone is losing their minds and jumping on the bandwagon.

I didn't think trump was not a legitimate president. I think he won and I think Russia wanted him to win and spread some dirt about Hillary. In the end more electoral votes went to Trump than Hillary (even though more Americans still voted for Hillary than trump).

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[One Brow]

Those numbers work for my point. In 2016 you've got 16% of Americans who thinks the President is illegitimate.

In November, about a week after the election.

That is the trend concerning me, and I could easily see the next election with that rate up another 4 points regardless of which party wins.

Where you see a trend, I see a bumpy line. The number that said Obama wasn't qualified to be President was much higher.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

The number that said Obama wasn't qualified to be President was much higher.

"Qualified" and "Illegitimate" are very different.

 

[One Brow]

"Qualified" and "Illegitimate" are very different.

You mean, they thought Obama was a legitimate, unqualified President?

 

[Al-O-Meter]

You mean, they thought Obama was a legitimate, unqualified President?

I don't have the statistics so I can't comment on exactly what they thought, but the questions of "Was this person elected in a free and fair election?" and "Does this person have the requisite intelligence and experience to perform a task?" are different. The answers could be double-no, double-yes, or a split of yes and no. I don't think it is correct to conflate them.

 

[One Brow]

I don't have the statistics so I can't comment on exactly what they thought, but the questions of "Was this person elected in a free and fair election?" and "Does this person have the requisite intelligence and experience to perform a task?" are different. The answers could be double-no, double-yes, or a split of yes and no. I don't think it is correct to conflate them.

So, you're basing your notion of a trend on exactly two elections, both of which involved Donald Trump?

 

[babe]

Polls are worthless. What can you expect people to think?

People largely are taught to cope in government schools. Methods of coping vary, but all involve some measure of decoupling personal notions and linking up to some consensus divined from the social group. When polled, most people respond on the same key they use in school, and say what they think is a "normal" position.

Then there's the media, which is not what the "normal" position must presume.

So the fact that we are not all unanimously enamored by issues or questions posed to us with sticky/drippy bias loaded content is just a big fail.

The BIG FAIL is greater than the big lie.

The BIG FAIL is the fact that people are more complex than most simple big heads believe.

Probably less than 1% of Americans actual believe, in their private core of fully protected sacred notions of truth, that elections are anywhere near fair. Probably 30% actually want to cheat, for one side or the other. The rest have varying practical degrees of complacency coming from the realization they just have no say.

Elections are not democracy, they are machines for gamers.

polling a mass of people who are almost totally excluded from relevant information is a fools errant. Using it to justify a political belief is insane, or partisan. Probably equivalent terms.

 

[fishonjazz]

So, you're basing your notion of a trend on exactly two elections, both of which involved Donald Trump?

It's almost like Donald trump isn't good for democracy or our country.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Al-O-Meter]

So, you're basing your notion of a trend on exactly two elections, both of which involved Donald Trump?

Three elections as I’m using 2012 as a data point below the 2016 level. That is an admittedly small set of points, but there are a number of trust-in-authority statistics that all show the same trend. People have less trust for Religious Leaders, the Media, Law Enforcement, and Intellectual Experts. I want to be proven wrong on this. I’ll happily take the hit to my ego. I don’t like this trend. I don’t like where it goes.