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Chad Ford chat re: Jazz

What do you have to back up he isnt a selfish player at all?

He was getting paid so much basically because Minnesota didn't have any players at all when they made contract with him, and they overvalued him. Right now, he doesn't really give me any feeling that he is a modest type of player who would be ok to make another contract with jazz for 30 million for 3 years, which is the most he deserves. I have seen how frustrated he was when he got benched just one game behind Favors in last quarter , so that doesn't really make me feel like he will consider he is really being overvalued right now and agree with a less favorable salary.

So in other words, you got nothing but your own speculation or "feeling". No quotes from the player, locker room, agent, etc. It's laughable that you could see a player frustrated during a game and apply that to their mindset 2 years in the future re-negotiating.

Also, please try to educate yourself in debate. It is really hard to take you seriously when you make an assertion and then demand everybody either accept it as fact or prove a negative. Merely posting the assertion does not make it so.
 
So in other words, you got nothing but your own speculation or "feeling". No quotes from the player, locker room, agent, etc. It's laughable that you could see a player frustrated during a game and apply that to their mindset 2 years in the future re-negotiating.

Also, please try to educate yourself in debate. It is really hard to take you seriously when you make an assertion and then demand everybody either accept it as fact or prove a negative. Merely posting the assertion does not make it so.

I don't need to convince anyone, i am telling my own ideas here, and i don't need long papers of stats in order to evaluate players, i have my own eyes , own mind. If you can't make any judgment watching a player, and you need to hear it from other people, it is up to you.

I am just telling, Big Al is pretty overrated by us, we can have a bet if you are so high on him, i am pretty confident with my own opinions. I think whatever team he goes, he can't make it even to the conference semi finals for the next 5 years. If he gets older and agrees with a cheap contract and becomes a role player then i don't know, but he can't be one of the main 2 guys in a contending team, thats all i say.
 
I think Memo can be a good backup with mid level exception but Big Al for sure won't get paid less than 14-15 a year which is quite ridiculous

I love Memo, but due to his injury, I believe he's going to be too much of a defensive liabilty to get any significant minutes. As for big Al, I wouldn't be against trading him to improve the team, but Utah isn't going to trade him just to give minutes to Kanter, nor should they. If Kanter wants a starting spot, he's going to have to earn it on an NBA floor. It's not going to be given to him, he's going to have to take it. I have high hopes for him, but there's no reason Utah should get in a hurry to Dump Al with Memo expiring and also coming off a pretty signifigant injury.
 
I don't need to convince anyone, i am telling my own ideas here, and i don't need long papers of stats in order to evaluate players, i have my own eyes , own mind. If you can't make any judgment watching a player, and you need to hear it from other people, it is up to you.

I am just telling, Big Al is pretty overrated by us, we can have a bet if you are so high on him, i am pretty confident with my own opinions. I think whatever team he goes, he can't make it even to the conference semi finals for the next 5 years. If he gets older and agrees with a cheap contract and becomes a role player then i don't know, but he can't be one of the main 2 guys in a contending team, thats all i say.

But that's not at all what you just said. This is why you get kicked around here like Nixon. Yet again I've made a specific rebuttal to a specific comment and you start dancing around avoiding the fact that you cannot support the statement.

It's not a big deal. Just looking for some sliver of intellectual honesty. But carry on puffing your chest and cruising toward 2000 bad posts.
 
I love Memo, but due to his injury, I believe he's going to be too much of a defensive liabilty to get any significant minutes. As for big Al, I wouldn't be against trading him to improve the team, but Utah isn't going to trade him just to give minutes to Kanter, nor should they. If Kanter wants a starting spot, he's going to have to earn it on an NBA floor. It's not going to be given to him, he's going to have to take it. I have high hopes for him, but there's no reason Utah should get in a hurry to Dump Al with Memo expiring and also coming off a pretty signifigant injury.

Yeah i agree, i never wanted to trade him to clear Kanters path, just we have such a flexibility right now and if we come across a good trade we should do it.
If we are so unsure about Kanter, that he is gonna be another Milicic, another Olowakandi or whatever,and thats why we can't expand Big Al,why did we even trade him for the first place?
 
But that's not at all what you just said. This is why you get kicked around here like Nixon. Yet again I've made a specific rebuttal to a specific comment and you start dancing around avoiding the fact that you cannot support the statement.

It's not a big deal. Just looking for some sliver of intellectual honesty. But carry on puffing your chest and cruising toward 2000 bad posts.

I make a claim, and you should back up your idea if you think i am wrong, show me something that will prove Big Al has a different personality than what i think. You can't give any example and you are talking ******** hiding behind terms like intellectual honesty.

I am not gonna make 1 hour research to satisfy your ego, i am telling my opinions, either take it or tell something else to prove i am wrong, but it is funny when you behave like i am talking nonsense and you always win the debate with showing lots of support to your claims , the truth is you don't prove any ****. You are just waiting for my 2000 bad posts so you can find something to argue and write about because you don't have anything else to say.

At least i bring some ideas, how to make the team, who should start who should not or whatever. All you do is getting stuck to Kanter, arguing with me and making unnecessary claims.
 
Did you mean why did we draft Kanter?

No i meant like, if as many people claims, Kanter has a good chance to be a bust, why did KOC even draft him ?

He saw some talent,he hoped he can improve himself a lot in time plus he knew Big Al wasn't the real answer just like Boozer, so he drafted. That's why i say Big Al is expandable.
 
Sepanol, you truly are an insufferably childish blowhard. It's sad.

Again and again, you continue to make blanket statements, broad assumptions and feeble connections to mask an obvious agenda (giving your boy 30+ mpg).

You filled the Jefferson offseason workout thread with countless accusations and straw man arguments, but it's not really about Jefferson. It's about players from Turkey. Jefferson just happens to be the guy getting the lion's share of Center minutes. Okur is on the wrong side of 30, suffered an injury that can be career ending, and is slated to make over 2/3 what Jefferson does this season yet you are perfectly happy to see the team continue to pay him the remainder of his contract. This is not due to any "player evaluation" or projected production of the player, but nationalism. Simply put, you'd like to see Turkish players favored by the team. Which would be fine if you could only admit it. If Utah drafted an Idaho Vandal (lol, I know) I'd be stoked and talking about that player a lot. But if somebody called me out for being a homer I would be happy to concede that.

But, no. Everyone else is just picking on you and has nothing to add but criticism. PKM is an obvious homer for UK yet is capable of putting that in context. In this way it is possible to discuss players with him without having him become jealously protective like you do. If you could stop pretending you are just a victim and maybe take a step back, get over yourself a little you might find out that people that disagree with you DO have something valid to say, and it's even possible you might find yourself having adult conversations with people you presently think are awful.

Here's a recap of some of my takes since you can't remember me posting aside from calling you out (LOL!)

1. During the draft I did want a center, just not the one we took. The reason being, I like my center to be the last line of defense and adding another mobile guy with length and hustle is just what the Dr. ordered. If you think about it you might realize this means I don't see Jefferson as the future at C. I liked JV because, aside from playing more basketball at a higher level, having preferred (by me) physical tools and having the work ethic to improve, he's going to be playing this year while all the other picks cry over their lost season. The main thing I hold against Kanter is that he is in fact not a center in the way I envision the position any more than AJ is. Therefore he is redundant and requires Favors to be the only defensive anchor. IMO Bargs and JV will be a more formidable defensive pair than Favors and AJ/Kanter/Okur. It is also my opinion that JV will develop faster due to the huge advantage he continues to have with regard to experience and competition.

2. Millsap has to play two positions in order to retain his minute load. He is just barely more valuable at PF right now than Favors IMO, and the team has no SF. He's got to refine his 3pt'er, guard skills and work on his quickness/anticipation on perimeter defense. Sap will be able to post up almost any SF in the league and has a sweet, sweet step back J so offensively he is pretty good already. It is not hard in the Flex to get the ball to any player at any spot you want. Not everybody believes Sap can make the transition but I wouldn't bet against him based on how far he has come already. Nobody works harder than him. Ideally I would like the 3 to be manned by Sap, CJ and Hayward in that order with Paul logging about 20-25 at PF and 10-15 at SF to start out, then reversing those numbers as he, Favors, and Kanter prove themselves in their roles.

3. Al Jefferson could be the perfect mentor for Kanter. This player was the personal understudy of Kevin McHale for several years, was coming around in the offense and is reportedly working his body into prime shape. I am 100% certain Kanter cannot beat out Al at the 5 in his first year. Practicing with/against Jefferson every day hopefully will give him a head start going into his career defending one of the elite low post scorers, and learning that footwork first hand. In fact there is probably no player I would rather have him model considering Kanter reportedly already loves contact. Jefferson's moves combined with aggressive banging would be fun to see. In a year and half or so a decision will have to be made and one of these guys would be kept, but probably not both unless Kanter's growth is hampered by some injury. This is why I don't want Jefferson moved.

4. Burks looks like he could be really special. I liked him at #6 before the lottery. One of the fun competitions to see will be Hayward vs. Burks to see who ends up the starter. Also looking forward to seeing Burks man the 1 at times.



So there you go. My gift to you, Sepanol, proof that I'm not just here to blow up your posts.

Edit: I'll add one more.

5. "Tanking" the season on purpose to get yet another high draft pick (there are 4 already) would do irreversible damage to the Utah Jazz. That might work for a team who had just assembled a bunch of older guys but our young players HAVE to learn how to win, and more importantly they have got to grow together and buy into the system and coach. Fans always hate players that quit on the team, with good reason. Well, players hate teams that quit on them too. When it comes time to re-sign they very likely would be tempted to simply go somewhere they feel their own talents and ability to contribute are valued, rather than marginalized in favor of the next big thing. Whatever happens, happens but if I was one of these young guys I'd want to feel like my organization backs up my competitive desire.
 
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What do you have to back up he isnt a selfish player at all?

How about being offered a max deal in Minni, and turning down that deal and signing for less claiming he wanted to prove himself before taking a max deal?

You suck.
 
LOL; I don't get why so many here are so hard on Big Al. The guy has NEVER played on a good ball club, and didn't know how to behave other than as a "go-to" offensive guy when he came here. He did in fact improve the latter part of last season. The effort was always there, IMO, just not the 'perfect' results we'd all like to see for a big-money guy. That'll come with more practice, which he's getting this off season. I'm betting he'll be even more improved once he gets thru a training camp with coach Ty. Whenever that'll be; sigh...
 
Sepanol, you truly are an insufferably childish blowhard. It's sad.

Again and again, you continue to make blanket statements, broad assumptions and feeble connections to mask an obvious agenda (giving your boy 30+ mpg).

You filled the Jefferson offseason workout thread with countless accusations and straw man arguments, but it's not really about Jefferson. It's about players from Turkey. Jefferson just happens to be the guy getting the lion's share of Center minutes. Okur is on the wrong side of 30, suffered an injury that can be career ending, and is slated to make over 2/3 what Jefferson does this season yet you are perfectly happy to see the team continue to pay him the remainder of his contract. This is not due to any "player evaluation" or projected production of the player, but nationalism. Simply put, you'd like to see Turkish players favored by the team. Which would be fine if you could only admit it. If Utah drafted an Idaho Vandal (lol, I know) I'd be stoked and talking about that player a lot. But if somebody called me out for being a homer I would be happy to concede that.

But, no. Everyone else is just picking on you and has nothing to add but criticism. PKM is an obvious homer for UK yet is capable of putting that in context. In this way it is possible to discuss players with him without having him become jealously protective like you do. If you could stop pretending you are just a victim and maybe take a step back, get over yourself a little you might find out that people that disagree with you DO have something valid to say, and it's even possible you might find yourself having adult conversations with people you presently think are awful.

Here's a recap of some of my takes since you can't remember me posting aside from calling you out (LOL!)

1. During the draft I did want a center, just not the one we took. The reason being, I like my center to be the last line of defense and adding another mobile guy with length and hustle is just what the Dr. ordered. If you think about it you might realize this means I don't see Jefferson as the future at C. I liked JV because, aside from playing more basketball at a higher level, having preferred (by me) physical tools and having the work ethic to improve, he's going to be playing this year while all the other picks cry over their lost season. The main thing I hold against Kanter is that he is in fact not a center in the way I envision the position any more than AJ is. Therefore he is redundant and requires Favors to be the only defensive anchor. IMO Bargs and JV will be a more formidable defensive pair than Favors and AJ/Kanter/Okur. It is also my opinion that JV will develop faster due to the huge advantage he continues to have with regard to experience and competition.

2. Millsap has to play two positions in order to retain his minute load. He is just barely more valuable at PF right now than Favors IMO, and the team has no SF. He's got to refine his 3pt'er, guard skills and work on his quickness/anticipation on perimeter defense. Sap will be able to post up almost any SF in the league and has a sweet, sweet step back J so offensively he is pretty good already. It is not hard in the Flex to get the ball to any player at any spot you want. Not everybody believes Sap can make the transition but I wouldn't bet against him based on how far he has come already. Nobody works harder than him. Ideally I would like the 3 to be manned by Sap, CJ and Hayward in that order with Paul logging about 20-25 at PF and 10-15 at SF to start out, then reversing those numbers as he, Favors, and Kanter prove themselves in their roles.

3. Al Jefferson could be the perfect mentor for Kanter. This player was the personal understudy of Kevin McHale for several years, was coming around in the offense and is reportedly working his body into prime shape. I am 100% certain Kanter cannot beat out Al at the 5 in his first year. Practicing with/against Jefferson every day hopefully will give him a head start going into his career defending one of the elite low post scorers, and learning that footwork first hand. In fact there is probably no player I would rather have him model considering Kanter reportedly already loves contact. Jefferson's moves combined with aggressive banging would be fun to see. In a year and half or so a decision will have to be made and one of these guys would be kept, but probably not both unless Kanter's growth is hampered by some injury. This is why I don't want Jefferson moved.

4. Burks looks like he could be really special. I liked him at #6 before the lottery. One of the fun competitions to see will be Hayward vs. Burks to see who ends up the starter. Also looking forward to seeing Burks man the 1 at times.



So there you go. My gift to you, Sepanol, proof that I'm not just here to blow up your posts.

Edit: I'll add one more.

5. "Tanking" the season on purpose to get yet another high draft pick (there are 4 already) would do irreversible damage to the Utah Jazz. That might work for a team who had just assembled a bunch of older guys but our young players HAVE to learn how to win, and more importantly they have got to grow together and buy into the system and coach. Fans always hate players that quit on the team, with good reason. Well, players hate teams that quit on them too. When it comes time to re-sign they very likely would be tempted to simply go somewhere they feel their own talents and ability to contribute are valued, rather than marginalized in favor of the next big thing. Whatever happens, happens but if I was one of these young guys I'd want to feel like my organization backs up my competitive desire.

yeah you are totally right i believe you
 
How about being offered a max deal in Minni, and turning down that deal and signing for less claiming he wanted to prove himself before taking a max deal?

You suck.


If a team offers Big Al a max deal, i think that team sucks not me babyboy

Yet it is sad that he couldn't prove anything
 
Sepanol love your posts man but sometimes you just gotta let it go.

Brown notes I agree with most of those numbers but #5. Normally I would never condone tanking but if, and that is a big if, we have a partial season this year I would mind Ty giving minutes to the young guys and working on refining his offense. Not playing players like bell, okur and a lot less of miles in favor of guys like kanter, Hayward and burks. That usually comes with growing pains. That is not losing on purpose just accept that wins won't be as much.
 
Sepanol love your posts man but sometimes you just gotta let it go.

Brown notes I agree with most of those numbers but #5. Normally I would never condone tanking but if, and that is a big if, we have a partial season this year I would mind Ty giving minutes to the young guys and working on refining his offense. Not playing players like bell, okur and a lot less of miles in favor of guys like kanter, Hayward and burks. That usually comes with growing pains. That is not losing on purpose just accept that wins won't be as much.
I agree with Brown on all his points. As for "tanking," I don't think anyone would disagree with this clarification. And I don't think it would be "tanking" to give Hayward and Favors a ton of minutes. That was going to happen regardless. Bell showed nothing, so give his minutes to Burks. Alec will likely beat him out in training camp. If I were Greg, I'd just buy Raja out. There are enough guys at SG. Okur's PT would likely be limited (probably no back-to-backs) so that's probably less of an issue. What it likely comes down to is: 1) Can Sap play major mins at SF? If so, the supposed logjam at the 4 is mostly resolved; and 2) is Kanter ready for major minutes? I just don't see it. Favors was a much better prospect, IMO, but for Sepanol's sake let's say Favors = Kanter. Both drafted #3 and both pretty raw (although Favors did have one year of college). Favors averaged less than 20 mins/per. And he was getting more PT with Utah late than he did with NJ earlier in the season. So maybe count on Kanter getting 15 early on, increasing if he shows he's ready.

C: Jefferson 35, Memo 13
PF: Favors: 35, Kanter 13
SF: Millsap: 30, Hayward 18
SG: Hayward 12, CJ 20, Burks 16
PG: Harris 33, Watson 15

Now that's assuming everyone is healthy and everyone plays all games, which never happens. It's likely Memo only plays in 2/3 of the games. A couple of players will get hurt and miss games. And I'm not worried about semantics. Call Kanter a 5 and Memo a 4 and switch them behind Jefferson and Favors. Call CJ a SF and give him the minutes behind Millsap instead of Hayward. Move minutes up and down a bit. Whatever.

Point is, I just don't see a huge problem this season (if there is one).
 
Great post glasseater my feelings exactly. The biggest question is can millsap play the 3 if so it is fine. If Uris starts playing well take min or trade miles
 
I agree with Brown on all his points. As for "tanking," I don't think anyone would disagree with this clarification. And I don't think it would be "tanking" to give Hayward and Favors a ton of minutes. That was going to happen regardless. Bell showed nothing, so give his minutes to Burks. Alec will likely beat him out in training camp. If I were Greg, I'd just buy Raja out. There are enough guys at SG. Okur's PT would likely be limited (probably no back-to-backs) so that's probably less of an issue. What it likely comes down to is: 1) Can Sap play major mins at SF? If so, the supposed logjam at the 4 is mostly resolved; and 2) is Kanter ready for major minutes? I just don't see it. Favors was a much better prospect, IMO, but for Sepanol's sake let's say Favors = Kanter. Both drafted #3 and both pretty raw (although Favors did have one year of college). Favors averaged less than 20 mins/per. And he was getting more PT with Utah late than he did with NJ earlier in the season. So maybe count on Kanter getting 15 early on, increasing if he shows he's ready.

C: Jefferson 35, Memo 13
PF: Favors: 35, Kanter 13
SF: Millsap: 30, Hayward 18
SG: Hayward 12, CJ 20, Burks 16
PG: Harris 33, Watson 15

Now that's assuming everyone is healthy and everyone plays all games, which never happens. It's likely Memo only plays in 2/3 of the games. A couple of players will get hurt and miss games. And I'm not worried about semantics. Call Kanter a 5 and Memo a 4 and switch them behind Jefferson and Favors. Call CJ a SF and give him the minutes behind Millsap instead of Hayward. Move minutes up and down a bit. Whatever.

Point is, I just don't see a huge problem this season (if there is one).

Cj with more minutes than Burks and Hayward is pretty much an automatic fail. His day has come and gone. He should get 10-12 min tops garbage time behind SG/SF as the time is available. That's it.
 
Cj with more minutes than Burks and Hayward is pretty much an automatic fail. His day has come and gone. He should get 10-12 min tops garbage time behind SG/SF as the time is available. That's it.

Hayward is getting 30 minutes to CJ's 20 in this proposed rotation. Burks is a rookie and he is going to get less time than CJ (at least at first), accept it.
 
Hayward is getting 30 minutes to CJ's 20 in this proposed rotation. Burks is a rookie and he is going to get less time than CJ (at least at first), accept it.
Exactly. Also CJ has an expiring contract so IF there is a season, Millsap shows he can play SF and Burks looks like the real deal, Miles could very well be traded for a draft pick at the deadline. As Xthren said, Millsap is really the wild card in this. I see no reason he shouldn't be able to play SF. At one point, Sloan said Paul could guard three positions. Millsap has a great mid-range jumper and we've already seen him hit quite a few 3's. In two years we could see a big man rotation of Favors, Jefferson and Kanter and Millsap, Hayward and Burks at the wing positions. That's all you need - 3 players to split 2 positions, as each can get 30+ mins. Add in Harris and a backup PG and there's a solid core 8.

Personally, I see Burks in a Maggette type role. He'd be perfect off the bench. Hopefully Kanter is ready for major minutes by Year #2. If not, possibly bring back Memo for another year to continue in a mentor role and split the backup minutes with Enes. And use the draft picks to get a good young PG to eventually replace Harris.
 
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