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Burks will be Rookie of the year.

sepanol said:
but i said, i think he is gonna be better than Big Al for sure in couple of years, and instead of keeping him we can trade and get some assets in return while we have the flexibility to do that (because we are overloaded with talented big men)
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Just like Oden was a sure-fire superstar, Kwame and Curry were going to be franchise centers, etc. Here is a list of centers taken in the Top 10 of the draft in the last 10 years:

2001: Brown, Chandler, Pau Gasol, Curry, Diop
2002: Ming, Tskitishvili, Nene, Wilcox, Stoudemire
2003: Kaman
2004: Howard, Araujo
2005: Bogut, Frye , Bynum
2006: O'Bryant, Sene
2007: Oden, Horford, Noah, Hawes
2008: B. Lopez
2009: Thabeet
2010: Cousins


How many of those players would you take over Jefferson? Howard and P. Gasol, obviously. Ming before he was hurt. Stoudemire, but he's really a PF vs. a low-post 5. Maybe a few others due to their defense capabilities. But some have been outright busts and others took YEARS before they became even serviceable rotation players. I hope you're right about Kanter; we all do. But statistically, there's a better chance he becomes the next Curry than the next Howard or even Bynum.

Jazz do not have an abundance of talented big men...at least not yet. Utah has Jefferson, a promising, but still young Favors, an old vet returning from a horrific injury in Okur, an under-sized PF in Millsap and a complete unknown in Kanter. What if the Jazz trades Jefferson, discovers Okur can't play on back-to-back nights and someone gets hurt or Kanter is not quite ready for prime-time? Who do the Jazz then turn to for major minutes, do they call Elson or see if Fesenko is still around? Maybe Rafa will come back for the vet minimum.

It's WAY too early to start talking trade. Besides, Okur is on the last year of his contract. Even if he resigns he's on the downside of his career. And how many guys play in all 82 games? Let's make sure the Jazz don't have a huge drop-off if someone gets hurt for an extended period of time before trading away a solid asset.
 
^^^ I think that may FINALLY be enough logic to make sep understand what everyone's saying .. naaaaahhh ..

Good stuff, though, Glass .. thanks for putting it together.
 
GlassEater said:
Just like Oden was a sure-fire superstar, Kwame and Curry were going to be franchise centers, etc. Here is a list of centers taken in the Top 10 of the draft in the last 10 years:

2001: Brown, Chandler, Pau Gasol, Curry, Diop
2002: Ming, Tskitishvili, Nene, Wilcox, Stoudemire
2003: Kaman
2004: Howard, Araujo
2005: Bogut, Frye , Bynum
2006: O'Bryant, Sene
2007: Oden, Horford, Noah, Hawes
2008: B. Lopez
2009: Thabeet
2010: Cousins


How many of those players would you take over Jefferson? Howard and P. Gasol, obviously. Ming before he was hurt. Stoudemire, but he's really a PF vs. a low-post 5. Maybe a few others due to their defense capabilities. But some have been outright busts and others took YEARS before they became even serviceable rotation players. I hope you're right about Kanter; we all do. But statistically, there's a better chance he becomes the next Curry than the next Howard or even Bynum.

Jazz do not have an abundance of talented big men...at least not yet. Utah has Jefferson, a promising, but still young Favors, an old vet returning from a horrific injury in Okur, an under-sized PF in Millsap and a complete unknown in Kanter. What if the Jazz trades Jefferson, discovers Okur can't play on back-to-back nights and someone gets hurt or Kanter is not quite ready for prime-time? Who do the Jazz then turn to for major minutes, do they call Elson or see if Fesenko is still around? Maybe Rafa will come back for the vet minimum.

It's WAY too early to start talking trade. Besides, Okur is on the last year of his contract. Even if he resigns he's on the downside of his career. And how many guys play in all 82 games? Let's make sure the Jazz don't have a huge drop-off if someone gets hurt for an extended period of time before trading away a solid asset.
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I would take Bosh, Lamarcus, Griffin, Love that you didn't add here. They are also same position with Big Al. Here i would get Lopez, Cousins, Horford, Bynum and Bogut over Jefferson as well.

What you claim in the second paragraph would be true, if we were really a contender this year but the main reason Kanter and Favors should get good mins is for them to grow. Memo is already in fit, i am not so high on him, but he is able to play 25 min avg night in and out, Millsap doesn't need to prove himself to get good mins in this team already, even though he is undersized or not.

If we are gonna talk about IFs, then Big Al, Millsap and Memo can be injured at the same time as well, so you have no guarantee for anything, but 2 good big men and 2 potentially very good big men is enough for a team like us. Even contending teams doesn't have such a deep big men rotation but they don't say, what if Gasol and Bynum is injured, will Mbenga fill that spot? So i guess we should just try to give logical decision considering our current position. We don't need to get 60 wins right this season, instead we should try to set the team chemistry which will make us have 60 wins in few years. About Memo you are right, he is already old but he already declared he is gonna play at least 3 more years in nba, also i watched him last few games in turkey and he seemed pretty fit, so at least for this year, he is able to get around 25 mins i think.
 
PKM said:
^^^ I think that may FINALLY be enough logic to make sep understand what everyone's saying .. naaaaahhh ..

Good stuff, though, Glass .. thanks for putting it together.
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What everyone saying seems like overrating Big Al a little bit. I was very happy when we traded him since i knew him from stats as a 20 10 guy but after watching 1 year i came to the conclusion that he can not be the main guy in a contender team. If he get enough time im sure he can get this numbers again and maybe become an allstar. But he has so many lacknesses which doesnt appear on stats.

Some guy was telling, Miami would have better chance to win if Big Al plays instead of Bosh. Come on guys, lets not fool ourselves, Big Al, is a good player, but not as good as Bosh or his likes. He couldn't be a franchise player even in Minnesota, so they traded him when they got Love, but most people here seems to believe something else.

Right now, Big Al seems like the more valuable player in the team, but thats just in monetary values. He is not gonna create miracles and be someone totally different in next 2 years, well lets not trade him and wait and see, but i am telling a different idea and i don't need to agree with anyone also you don't need to agree with me.

But we should face that this team already passed the Dwil Boozer era, and now we are rebuilding. We have very good young players and we better consider to create a team chemistry among them instead of getting stuck to Harris, Jefferson or else. Hayward, Favors, Kanter and Burks are the main core right now and we better try to find a way how to make them work together.
 
I love how Sepanol wants to commit to the young players as if guys like Millsap, Jefferson, Watson, etc are just dragging the franchise down. It's so ridiculous. I suppose in Turkey everyone over 25 is just shot in the head so they don't eat the food children should have.

Pro tip, Sep: Teams that are comprised of a core that is made up of rookies and 2nd year players always, ALWAYS lose a ton of games. Any team that wants to win must have veterans that know how to compete and slug through an 82 game season. The NBA is a very difficult place to succeed. Young guys need mentoring and there has never been a coach so good he didn't need leadership within the roster.

None of this has anything to do with Deron Williams or Carlos Boozer. Bringing them up is like icing your cake with shampoo. It just doesn't make any sense.
 
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sepanol said:
I would take Bosh, Lamarcus, Griffin, Love that you didn't add here. They are also same position with Big Al. Here i would get Lopez, Cousins, Horford, Bynum and Bogut over Jefferson as well.

About Memo you are right, he is already old but he already declared he is gonna play at least 3 more years in nba, also i watched him last few games in turkey and he seemed pretty fit, so at least for this year, he is able to get around 25 mins i think.
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Didn't add those guys because they primarily play PF. They do NOT play the same position as Jefferson. You can claim he's a "4," but Jefferson plays most of his time in the post.

As for Memo, others have said they also watched him play and he's shying away from contact. All he's doing is standing outside and firing up 3's. He might not even be effective once he comes back. There's a huge difference in level of physical play between Euro leagues and the NBA. Due to injury and age, I see a team having to manage him just like the Jazz did with Harpring - 20 mins/per, no back-to-backs, etc.

And speaking of Memo, by your argument, we should have traded him after HIS 1st year in Utah. He was out of shape and didn't play defense. He didn't have much range, only hitting 27% of his 3's. And since he didn't take many 3's (17 for 63), that meant his inside shooting was extremely subpar for a big man (47% overall). Far cry from what Jefferson gave us his first year. Do ya think perhaps Jefferson struggled to learn the ofense and defense? He certainly seemed out of place the first several months. And then the turmoil with Deron, Sloan, new teammates, etc. I'm willing to see if he's worked hard over the summer and improves over the next year. At least he blocks some shots.

If anything, Okur should be the one released. Then get rid of Jefferson. But don't stop there. It's a proven FACT Fesenko was the best Jazz center last season. You can extrapolate +/- stats over major minutes and they'll be the same whether a player is goign against starters or subs. Fesenko should be the starter at the 5, with Kanter coming off the bench. Start Favors at PF. There are your three rotation players. And Elson can be the emergency guy off the bench. If he's not available, let's bring back Jarron. He was very efficient as a backup big.
 
People (OK, maybe just Sepanol) are talking about Kanter making Jefferson expendable. I don't see it. I was one of the biggest Draft-Kanter guys out there, but I've always thought he'd make Millsap more expendable than Al. I really think Al's going to have a really solid year (yes, that means I think we're playing by Dec. 15), and eventually we'll have a 3-headed monster at PF/C. Memo might stay for this year, but he's gone after that, and I see Paul being easier to trade given his attractive contract.

KOC's going to have some tough decisions to make in the next few years.
 
GlassEater said:
Didn't add those guys because they primarily play PF. They do NOT play the same position as Jefferson. You can claim he's a "4," but Jefferson plays most of his time in the post.

As for Memo, others have said they also watched him play and he's shying away from contact. All he's doing is standing outside and firing up 3's. He might not even be effective once he comes back. There's a huge difference in level of physical play between Euro leagues and the NBA. Due to injury and age, I see a team having to manage him just like the Jazz did with Harpring - 20 mins/per, no back-to-backs, etc.

And speaking of Memo, by your argument, we should have traded him after HIS 1st year in Utah. He was out of shape and didn't play defense. He didn't have much range, only hitting 27% of his 3's. And since he didn't take many 3's (17 for 63), that meant his inside shooting was extremely subpar for a big man (47% overall). Far cry from what Jefferson gave us his first year. Do ya think perhaps Jefferson struggled to learn the ofense and defense? He certainly seemed out of place the first several months. And then the turmoil with Deron, Sloan, new teammates, etc. I'm willing to see if he's worked hard over the summer and improves over the next year. At least he blocks some shots.

If anything, Okur should be the one released. Then get rid of Jefferson. But don't stop there. It's a proven FACT Fesenko was the best Jazz center last season. You can extrapolate +/- stats over major minutes and they'll be the same whether a player is goign against starters or subs. Fesenko should be the starter at the 5, with Kanter coming off the bench. Start Favors at PF. There are your three rotation players. And Elson can be the emergency guy off the bench. If he's not available, let's bring back Jarron. He was very efficient as a backup big.
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I don't know what makes you think Jefferson is a real center, but when i think about centers, i think about guys like Howard, Oden, Kaman, Bynum, Omer Asik. Thats what i think about a center, they should be the keeper, someone like Big Al, Bosh, Lamarcus, Duncan, who is pretty big and who plays post games seems more like a PF to me.

It is not necessarily true that always a PF-C pair should be on the court, sometimes there can be two PFs or two Cs but Jefferson doesn't seem like a C to me.
Memo wasn't neither, but somehow Sloan insisted to play him at C position, of course it wasn't ideal situation in defense together with Boozer so we have seen the consequences.

Anyway i am not so high on Memo, i know he isn't gonna be like in his prime, but i think he will be eager to stay in the team with a reasonable salary and he can contribute time to time, even if he starts, he shouldn't take more than 20 min per game. We should think more logically, how long we can keep all these guys together. Once Favors Hayward and Kanter want extension, we arent gonna be able to keep all these guys together with Big Al at all. I respect some people say lets keep him 2 more years until we have salary cap problem and see how things are going, but this is my opinion, we should make the radical move earlier, not when it is the last second.

As bad as Memo is in the defensive end, at least he is smart, but Jefferson doesn't know where to stand, how to position in defense, he lacks basketball iq so badly. He may still make 20 10 stats but it doesn't convince me we should give him all the responsibility.
 
margodydek said:
People (OK, maybe just Sepanol) are talking about Kanter making Jefferson expendable. I don't see it. I was one of the biggest Draft-Kanter guys out there, but I've always thought he'd make Millsap more expendable than Al. I really think Al's going to have a really solid year (yes, that means I think we're playing by Dec. 15), and eventually we'll have a 3-headed monster at PF/C. Memo might stay for this year, but he's gone after that, and I see Paul being easier to trade given his attractive contract.

KOC's going to have some tough decisions to make in the next few years.
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Put this PF C comparison aside, tell me do you think Kanter-Big Al are able to play together? I don't see that happening.
Kanter may play along with Millsap, Favors, even Memo but not Big Al, they are just not compatible enough.
Big Al should play with a good big defender(classical center) in order to compensate his lacknesses, or a PF like Favors who has good athletic and defensive skills rather than a go to guy.
If he was really a Center, he could have played better along with Millsap last year, but apparently they didn't do well as a pair.
Here i think Favors is the key player, because he has tools to play with everyone else together, it is important how good he will play this year.(if there is gonna be a year at all)
 
sepanol said:
I don't know what makes you think Jefferson is a real center, but when i think about centers, i think about guys like Howard, Oden, Kaman, Bynum, Omer Asik. Thats what i think about a center, they should be the keeper, someone like Big Al, Bosh, Lamarcus, Duncan, who is pretty big and who plays post games seems more like a PF to me.

It is not necessarily true that always a PF-C pair should be on the court, sometimes there can be two PFs or two Cs but Jefferson doesn't seem like a C to me.
Memo wasn't neither, but somehow Sloan insisted to play him at C position, of course it wasn't ideal situation in defense together with Boozer so we have seen the consequences.

Anyway i am not so high on Memo, i know he isn't gonna be like in his prime, but i think he will be eager to stay in the team with a reasonable salary and he can contribute time to time, even if he starts, he shouldn't take more than 20 min per game. We should think more logically, how long we can keep all these guys together. Once Favors Hayward and Kanter want extension, we arent gonna be able to keep all these guys together with Big Al at all. I respect some people say lets keep him 2 more years until we have salary cap problem and see how things are going, but this is my opinion, we should make the radical move earlier, not when it is the last second.

As bad as Memo is in the defensive end, at least he is smart, but Jefferson doesn't know where to stand, how to position in defense, he lacks basketball iq so badly. He may still make 20 10 stats but it doesn't convince me we should give him all the responsibility.
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a) So, out of that list of "true centres" you named, only one is probably going to be healthy and/or skilled over the next 10 years. Asik has ZERO offense, Kaman is legitimately garbage, and is finding himself expendable from DeAndre Jordan of all players. Tell me when Bynum and Oden don't have consistent knee problems. So, as we are seeing, there is only one legitimate, skilled center in the NBA. I have no idea where this leaves you, nor what point you are trying to make, I just laughed at the players you selected.
b)Position on defense? doesn't know where to stand? Look buddy, you don't gain 2 blocks a game from not knowing how to position yourself on defense. Al Jefferson was one of the best one-on-one defenders in the NBA last season, a stat you seem to continuously forget (interestingly enough). His major problem, is transition/rotational defense, defending the pick and rolls; that sort of thing. Give credit where credit is due, your argument is intellectually dishonest if you don't.
c)Its funny how you rip on Al Jeffersons I'm-game Basketball IQ, yet Kanters is probably much, much worse right now, seeing as he hasn't played consistently for 2 years. Chad Ford also pointed this out, yet you made no mention of it in the other thread. Enjoy seeing Kanter average 10rpg in the D-league, next season, cuz he sure as hell won't be doing the same in the NBA.
 
sepanol said:
Put this PF C comparison aside, tell me do you think Kanter-Big Al are able to play together? I don't see that happening.
Kanter may play along with Millsap, Favors, even Memo but not Big Al, they are just not compatible enough.
Big Al should play with a good big defender(classical center) in order to compensate his lacknesses, or a PF like Favors who has good athletic and defensive skills rather than a go to guy.
If he was really a Center, he could have played better along with Millsap last year, but apparently they didn't do well as a pair.
Here i think Favors is the key player, because he has tools to play with everyone else together, it is important how good he will play this year.(if there is gonna be a year at all)
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I'd much rather see an Al/Kanter combo than a Kanter/Millsap combo.
 
Let's see, sepanol; the Knicks won an NBA championship with Jerry Lucas at C, who was 6'9", I believe. And the Bullets (now Wizards) with the 6'7" Wes Unseld in 1978. Moses Malone was 6'10". If shorter guys play smart AND there is a good team scheme, shorter C's can succeed. With that said, they DO still need to rebound, which is more about hustle, getting position, and ball-awareness than height, as is defense.
Al's issue is more mental than physical, IMO. He's got plenty of size and technique (offensively) to play C. He needs to WORK within a team-oriented system for some time to become proficient with his teammates. Dating back to his High school days, he's always been 'the man'; he has NEVER worked in a team-oriented philosophy.
Personally, I think he'll surprise a lot of folks next season, whenever that's gonna be...
 
LOL; how could I forget the Celtics' Dave Cowens, and the Golden State Warriors with Clifford Ray. Both were 6'9" at their NBA chamionship teams' respective C positions. Grant you height/wingspan make up for a lot of mistakes, but a real smart and competitive 'short' C can do the job too...
 
Al will be an expiring contract the next time we see NBA ball, and that's if the contracts aren't voided anyways! I think that's what killed this thread. Given the Jazz needs, which are defense oriented, there is 0% Al is in the long term plans.
 
Jazz4ever said:
Al will be an expiring contract the next time we see NBA ball, and that's if the contracts aren't voided anyways! I think that's what killed this thread. Given the Jazz needs, which are defense oriented, there is 0% Al is in the long term plans.
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Or,,,,,, just another thought on what killed this thread,,,,,, maybe the topic???? KANTER AS ROOKIE OF THE YEAR!!!! Hey but you got 6 pages of primates ready to take this one to the next level! Congrats! Please no one tattle on me becaue of my 'excessive use of exlamation points!!!!' this time. Maybe you can find something better to report,,,, if you can see it.
 
Lakers_Slapper said:
Or,,,,,, just another thought on what killed this thread,,,,,, maybe the topic???? KANTER AS ROOKIE OF THE YEAR!!!! Hey but you got 6 pages of primates ready to take this one to the next level! Congrats! Please no one tattle on me becaue of my 'excessive use of exlamation points!!!!' this time. Maybe you can find something better to report,,,, if you can see it.
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would kinda like to respond, but, huh???
 
Jazz4ever said:
Al will be an expiring contract the next time we see NBA ball, and that's if the contracts aren't voided anyways! I think that's what killed this thread. Given the Jazz needs, which are defense oriented, there is 0% Al is in the long term plans.
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Are you sure about that? It's likely the year will just be voided if there's no season and 2011-12 would not count towards fulfillment of a contract year or as a credit towards free agency.
 
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