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I don't feel like I making too crazy of a claim

I'm simply saying that health to your best players is important in the playoffs. And in this year's playoffs it was possibly the most important thing. Seemed like for the most part the teams who had their best players out for most of their games got bounced and the teams that had their best players available for most of their games advanced. Which makes sense when you think about it.

Might even be a good idea to not fight too hard for playoff seeding and instead prioritize health and rest for your best players cause it seems like your best players being healthy can be a huge factor in the playoffs.

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fishonjazz said:
I don't feel like I making too crazy of a claim

I'm simply saying that health to your best players is important in the playoffs. And in this year's playoffs it was possibly the most important thing. Seemed like for the most part the teams who had their best players out for most of their games got bounced and the teams that had their best players available for most of their games advanced. Which makes sense when you think about it.

Might even be a good idea to not fight too hard for playoff seeding and instead prioritize health and rest for your best players cause it seems like your best players being healthy can be a huge factor in the playoffs.

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Injuries are a major part of the entire scenario. Unfortunately, we put our faith and assets into a guy who has missed at least 12 regular season games for the last 7 seasons. And he is 33 years old.

He has missed more playoff games in the two years he has been here than he has made. That's a major issue.

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Mike Conley Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Draft Status and more | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the latest stats of Mike Conley. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, shoots, school and more on Basketball-Reference.com
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fishonjazz said:
I don't feel like I making too crazy of a claim

I'm simply saying that health to your best players is important in the playoffs. And in this year's playoffs it was possibly the most important thing. Seemed like for the most part the teams who had their best players out for most of their games got bounced and the teams that had their best players available for most of their games advanced. Which makes sense when you think about it.

Might even be a good idea to not fight too hard for playoff seeding and instead prioritize health and rest for your best players cause it seems like your best players being healthy can be a huge factor in the playoffs.

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I think the issue is you make it sound as though we definitely win if we stay healthy… which is just not the case. Depth was one issue, coaching or not being able to adjust was another. Health of your best players is always a requirement. The clips series the defense was so trashy… part of that is having hobbled guys… but last year it was trashy too and we were healthy for the most part. We have issues that won’t be solved with just good health… though that is obviously a requirement.

The clips series we stole one with them coming off a long series… win the next one because we shot 51% from three… the next 4 games we lost by 26, 14, 8, 12.
That’s not really close… without Kawhi for three of those. Both teams full strength we likely lose. Because we went up 2-0 we trick ourselves into thinking we had em when the fact is the margin of victory suggest it wasn’t super close.
 
Handlogten's Heros said:
I think the issue is you make it sound as though we definitely win if we stay healthy… which is just not the case. Depth was one issue, coaching or not being able to adjust was another. Health of your best players is always a requirement. The clips series the defense was so trashy… part of that is having hobbled guys… but last year it was trashy too and we were healthy for the most part. We have issues that won’t be solved with just good health… though that is obviously a requirement.

The clips series we stole one with them coming off a long series… win the next one because we shot 51% from three… the next 4 games we lost by 26, 14, 8, 12.
That’s not really close… without Kawhi for three of those. Both teams full strength we likely lose. Because we went up 2-0 we trick ourselves into thinking we had em when the fact is the margin of victory suggest it wasn’t super close.
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To the last point as well it took two superhuman games from Donovan too.
 
LoPo said:
Injuries are a major part of the entire scenario.



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Sometimes. But not always (as we saw with the 2 teams in the finals)

Let's say that Chris Paul is out vs the Lakers but AD is healthy. Sure it would be nice for the suns to have the depth that they had but would it have been enough to win that series?

No cp3 vs the clippers with kahwi. Who wins?

No cp3 vs the nuggets with Murray. Who wins?

No Middleton vs the nets with kyrie and harden healthy. Who wins?


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Handlogten's Heros said:
I think the issue is you make it sound as though we definitely win if we stay healthy… which is just not the case. Depth was one issue, coaching or not being able to adjust was another. Health of your best players is always a requirement. The clips series the defense was so trashy… part of that is having hobbled guys… but last year it was trashy too and we were healthy for the most part. We have issues that won’t be solved with just good health… though that is obviously a requirement.

The clips series we stole one with them coming off a long series… win the next one because we shot 51% from three… the next 4 games we lost by 26, 14, 8, 12.
That’s not really close… without Kawhi for three of those. Both teams full strength we likely lose. Because we went up 2-0 we trick ourselves into thinking we had em when the fact is the margin of victory suggest it wasn’t super close.
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I don't think we definitely win if healthy. Not at all.
I think that if we face the Lakers without AD and we are healthy we win that series though.
I think that if we face the nuggets without Murray and we are healthy we win that series though.
I think that if we face the clippers without kahwi and we are healthy then we win that series though.
And I think if we face the bucks and we are healthy we win that series.

I also think that if the suns were missing cp3 against the Lakers and the Lakers were healthy then they would lose that series. If they played the nuggets without cp3 and the nuggets had Murray then I think they might lose that series. I think it they played the clippers without cp3 and the clippers had kahwi then they lose that series (hell they lose that series even as it was if they don't get pretty lucky in 2 of the games) even with their great depth.

So what I'm saying is simply that we could have done what the suns did (and maybe even beat the bucks) if we have the same health as the suns and our opponents have the same health as the suns opponents even though we weren't as deep.
When you are healthier like the bucks and suns were you don't need the depth as much.

When the jazz were healthy they were very very good this season in the regular season and the playoffs against all types of opponents. When we were missing Conley or Donovan or both we weren't as good surprisingly.

Having your best players healthy in the playoffs is important imo. Having depth and versatility deep into your bench is also important.

I think having your best players healthy is even more important than having depth and versatility deep into your bench though. Agree to disagree I guess


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Having depth and versatility is a good thing. I think the suns were deeper and more versatile than the jazz and the jazz should try to improve their depth and versatility.

But even if we were as deep and versatile as the suns but we don't have conley (or Rudy or Donovan) then we still don't make the finals imo.

And I also think that even with the suns great depth and versatility they wouldn't make the finals without cp3 (or booker or ayton). Having your best players available appears to have a huge effect on how a team does in the playoffs using hindsight and seeing how the playoffs played out.

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fishonjazz said:
Yes my mind is made up that having your best players miss lots of playoff games is detrimental to winning lots of playoff games. You won't be able to change my mind on that.
Do you think that if Giannis or middleton missed more games than they played in that they would have still won the title?

Do you think of Chris Paul or booker would have missed more games than they played in that they would have went to the finals?

I agree that each team had a few guys miss a few games. I think that having a few guys miss a few games is advantageous to having your best guys miss lots of games like many contenders in these playoffs had happen.

The bucks and suns built great contending teams. So did the jazz, Lakers, nuggets, clippers, nets, etc. The bucks and suns just happened to be luckier with health than those other teams.

You have to build a contending roster. Then, you also have to usually get lucky. Not only did the suns get lucky with their own health. They also got lucky with their opponent lack of health. And even with that luck they still needed more luck to get past the clippers (if Paul George, a great free throw shooter makes 2 free throws at the end of a game the clippers win that game. If there is a review on an out of bounds play at the end of another game the clippers likely win that one and finish off the suns in 6 games.)


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Nice to see you praise Middleton for once.

The jazz won TWO games against a solid, competitive playoff team. Then lost 4 straight, including 2 without Kawhi. So your evidence that we were a contender is based completely on this last regular season. Like, 100%.

Not convincing.
 
fishonjazz said:
Having depth and versatility is a good thing. I think the suns were deeper and more versatile than the jazz and the jazz should try to improve their depth and versatility.

But even if we were as deep and versatile as the suns but we don't have conley (or Rudy or Donovan) then we still don't make the finals imo.

And I also think that even with the suns great depth and versatility they wouldn't make the finals without cp3 (or booker or ayton). Having your best players available appears to have a huge effect on how a team does in the playoffs using hindsight and seeing how the playoffs played out.

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Nobody is saying that health isn’t crucial.... so I have no idea who you’re arguing with.

I watched most of the finals. It was clear to me that we didn’t have a team that belonged on that stage. That was an observation based on talent, versatility, fit, and scheme.... And I was comparing both teams to the jazz at full strength. Health wasn’t what prevented us from lifting the trophy. Did it impact our run? Obviously yes.
 
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