Voter Suppression and Why The Republicans Love It So Much?

[fishonjazz]

Sure. Why not? At this point there have been thousands of tests of Einstein's theory of relativity, and scientists continue to think up new ones. Despite never finding a single flaw in thousands of tests, new grants get issued and new experiments happen. If someone wants to pay for it and someone wants to look then why not let them even if it is the ten thousandth time? All it does is reinforce the previous work, and that is exactly what we want. Declaring things off limits is what creates doubt. I do not believe this most recent audit in AZ did any damage but I do think stakeholders actively discouraging investigation absolutely has. It fosters an idea of "why are they putting so much effort in discouraging this if they have nothing to hide?"

Exactly. Every state should have audits over and over again until the next election so we can be absolutely sure. (Although even then we couldn't be totally sure. I mean I personally didn't see every person in America's vote so I can never really be sure).

 

[fishonjazz]

Doubtful. The media has spent months decrying the audit. With the audit showing that it was just a double checking and not some plot to end democracy, all those with their hair on fire over it being allowed are looking pretty foolish.

Actually the reason I haven't seen much in the media yet is because it hasn't been officially announced. The results were just leaked.
The media needs to blast it all over the place so that those with their hair on fire over the election being stolen due to a reality tv star politicians lies will look foolish. Again.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Exactly. Every state should have audits over and over again until the next election so we can be absolutely sure. (Although even then we couldn't be totally sure. I mean I personally didn't see every person in America's vote so I can never really be sure).

Why stop at the next election? If a group wants to look at the 1980 election and we still have the stuff lying around, what is the harm in it?

I can understand needing to keep some information secret for purposes of national security but everything else the government does should be wide open. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. If someone wants to check under every government rock, that is great. If a thousand people want to check under every government rock ten times each then it is even better.

One has to keep in mind that double checking vote totals does nothing when it comes to naming the President. The United States is not a democracy. It is a republic. All an audit does is examine the processes for which improvements can be made for future votes.

 

[fishonjazz]

Why stop at the next election? If a group wants to look at the 1980 election and we still have the stuff lying around, what is the harm in it?

I can understand needing to keep some information secret for purposes of national security but everything else the government does should be wide open. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. If someone wants to check under every government rock, that is great. If a thousand people want to check under every government rock ten times each then it is even better.

One has to keep in mind that double checking vote totals does nothing when it comes to naming the President. The United States is not a democracy. It is a republic. All an audit does is examine the processes for which improvements can be made for future votes.

The harm is obvious. If people are doubting results then they are getting upset and doubting our whole political system. Why does that matter? Well 1-6-21 is why.
Also, there is cost and time wasted. People working on auditing results that dont need to be audited over and over again could be doing something better with that time and money.
And we are a democracy. Just because you hate that word doesn't change the fact that we are a democracy.

 

[fishonjazz]

Why stop at the next election? If a group wants to look at the 1980 election and we still have the stuff lying around, what is the harm in it?

I can understand needing to keep some information secret for purposes of national security but everything else the government does should be wide open. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. If someone wants to check under every government rock, that is great. If a thousand people want to check under every government rock ten times each then it is even better.

One has to keep in mind that double checking vote totals does nothing when it comes to naming the President. The United States is not a democracy. It is a republic. All an audit does is examine the processes for which improvements can be made for future votes.

Also, this audit wasn't about examining the process for which improvements can be made for future votes. This audit was for the "stop the steal" folks who wanted desperately to make everyone see that the democrats are evil and stole the election from poor old innocent donald trump.
If trump simply accepted defeat, this audit doesn't happen. If trump won the election, this audit doesn't happen.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

The harm is obvious. If people are doubting results then they are getting upset and doubting our whole political system. Why does that matter? Well 1-6-21 is why.

You think 1-6-21 happened because too many audits were allowed? I don't subscribe to that view.

This audit was for the "stop the steal" folks who wanted desperately to make everyone see that the democrats are evil and stole the election from poor old innocent donald trump.

Yup, and it was allowed to proceed. It concluded that Biden won Maricopa County exactly as was announced. That it was an adversarial audit staffed by Trump supporters and financed by Trump supporters is exactly why it should move public opinion in the direction of believing the system works and we should want more, not less of that.

And we are a democracy. Just because you hate that word doesn't change the fact that we are a democracy.

I don't hate the word but I'm not a fan of the misuse of the word. There is a difference between voting and democracy. The United States is a republic, yet we vote. The UK is a constitutional monarchy with an actual queen, and they vote. Iran is a theocracy with a Supreme Council of clerics that put forth a slate of candidates acceptable to Allah, and the Iranians vote. Iraq in 2002 was a dictatorship when Iraqis cast votes for Saddam Hussein. Casting votes and having a democracy are not the same thing.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Also, this audit wasn't about examining the process for which improvements can be made for future votes. This audit was for the "stop the steal" folks who wanted desperately to make everyone see that the democrats are evil and stole the election from poor old innocent donald trump.
If trump simply accepted defeat, this audit doesn't happen. If trump won the election, this audit doesn't happen.

Very good point. If Trump had graciously accepted defeat, none of these audits would’ve occurred and fewer of these voter suppression bills would have been passed. Instead, we have one party completely spitting on our democracy and working to overturn future elections. It’s a completely authoritarian move that puts American democracy at stake.

 

[fishonjazz]

You think 1-6-21 happened because too many audits were allowed? I don't subscribe to that view.

Yup, and it was allowed to proceed. It concluded that Biden won Maricopa County exactly as was announced. That it was an adversarial audit staffed by Trump supporters and financed by Trump supporters is exactly why it should move public opinion in the direction of believing the system works and we should want more, not less of that.

I don't hate the word but I'm not a fan of the misuse of the word. There is a difference between voting and democracy. The United States is a republic, yet we vote. The UK is a constitutional monarchy with an actual queen, and they vote. Iran is a theocracy with a Supreme Council of clerics that put forth a slate of candidates acceptable to Allah, and the Iranians vote. Iraq in 2002 was a dictatorship when Iraqis cast votes for Saddam Hussein. Casting votes and having a democracy are not the same thing.

1-6-21 happened because people didn't trust the results of the election. This audit happened for the same reason. They are connected in that way. When you start to try to cast doubt upon election results like was done with this election then 1-6-21 happens.
Did cyber ninjas do some previous audits in previous elections?

Casting votes and having a democracy actually are the same thing. A democracy is a country where the people choose their government. In America we choose our government. So does the UK and so does Iran. All three countries are a democracy. So are many other countries.


Is the United States of America a democracy?


The United States is a representative democracy. This means that our government is elected by citizens. Here, citizens vote for their government officials. ... Voting in an election and contacting our elected officials are two ways that Americans can participate in their democracy.

Democracy and the UK Parliament​

The United Kingdom (UK) is a democracy. A democracy is a country where the people choose their government.




Iran has a democratically elected president, a parliament (or Majlis), an Assembly of Experts (which elects the supreme leader), and local councils.

 

[fishonjazz]

I googled the definition of democracy. Here are some of the responses:
A system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

A democracy is a system where people can change their rulers in a peaceful manner and the government is given the right to rule because the people say it may.

A democracy means rule by the people. The name is used for different forms of government, where the people can take part in the decisions that affect the way their community is run. ... The people elect their leaders. These leaders take this decision about laws. This is commonly called representative democracy.

U.S. president Abraham Lincoln (1809-1865) defined democracy as: «Government of the people, by the people, for the people» Democracy is by far the most challenging form of government - both for politicians and for the people. The term democracy comes from the Greek language and means "rule by the (simple) people".

What are the 7 principles of democracy?
These seven principles include: checks and balances, federalism, individual rights, limited government, popular sovereignty, republicanism, and separation of powers.


In the dictionary definition, democracy "is government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them or by their elected agents under a free electoral system."

What are some examples of democracy?
The United States and Nigeria are examples of presidential democracies. The executive branch includes the president and his cabinet. Along with the judicial and legislative branch, the three branches of government work to keep checks and balances.

Sorry AI, looks like that all describes the United states of america.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

1-6-21 happened because people didn't trust the results of the election. This audit happened for the same reason. They are connected in that way. When you start to try to cast doubt upon election results like was done with this election then 1-6-21 happens.

I'm not following your chain of logic. What you are saying is the equivalent of car accidents are caused by snowy roads. Because of snowy roads, some people want to pay for and install snow tires. Snow tires and car accidents are connected in that way therefor we should discourage the use of snow tires because we don't want snowy roads.

Casting votes and having a democracy actually are the same thing.

Democracy is a system of government. It is a system of government the United States does not have. We do not vote for Supreme Court justices. We do not vote for generals of our military or most of the leadership positions in the various bureaucratic departments. Even our President is elected by the Electoral College, not the popular vote. We have had many recent US Presidents who lost the popular vote but it didn't matter because the Electoral College decides the President. The people didn't even get to vote for their Senators until the 17th Amendment was passed.

Voting is simply making your voice heard in a way that can be tabulated. We vote for winners of reality TV shows. Having the power to voice an opinion on any particular subject is very different from having the power to command a government. The former is voting. The latter is democracy.

Here, citizens vote for their government officials.

Do they? Take a rough guess: How many officials are there employed in our government in total? That title encompasses every employee of the government making over $20k (or over $15k if employed by the House or Senate).

In reality, you have absolutely no power over nearly every part of our government. The second syllable of democracy comes from the Greek word "kratia" which translates to power or authority. Without power or authority over nearly every part of our government, there is no democracy. It is just voting and it is venting. It is a pressure release valve to prevent a population from feeling like they have no other way of having their voices heard than to commit acts of violence. I suppose I should have offered up the blue pill to give you an out, but voting in an election and contacting elected officials keeps you pacified, not empowered. I'm not saying that pacification is a bad thing. Revolutions and Civil Wars are awful. That said, the power you think you have is an illusion, and so is democracy in the United States. Like it or not, you live in a republic. I think that is a very good thing.

 

[Al-O-Meter]

A system of government by the whole population

Yup.

A democracy means rule by the people.

Nailed it.

The term democracy comes from the Greek language and means "rule by the (simple) people".

Correct again.

In the dictionary definition, democracy "is government by the people in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised directly by them"

Totally agree.

@fishonjazz, you're the people. Do you rule us? Do you have supreme power vested in you? Nope, because you live in a republic and not a democracy.

 

[fishonjazz]

I'm not following your chain of logic. What you are saying is the equivalent of car accidents are caused by snowy roads. Because of snowy roads, some people want to pay for and install snow tires. Snow tires and car accidents are connected in that way therefor we should discourage the use of snow tires because we don't want snowy roads.

Democracy is a system of government. It is a system of government the United States does not have. We do not vote for Supreme Court justices. We do not vote for generals of our military or most of the leadership positions in the various bureaucratic departments. Even our President is elected by the Electoral College, not the popular vote. We have had many recent US Presidents who lost the popular vote but it didn't matter because the Electoral College decides the President. The people didn't even get to vote for their Senators until the 17th Amendment was passed.

Voting is simply making your voice heard in a way that can be tabulated. We vote for winners of reality TV shows. Having the power to voice an opinion on any particular subject is very different from having the power to command a government. The former is voting. The latter is democracy.

Do they? Take a rough guess: How many officials are there employed in our government in total? That title encompasses every employee of the government making over $20k (or over $15k if employed by the House or Senate).

In reality, you have absolutely no power over nearly every part of our government. The second syllable of democracy comes from the Greek word "kratia" which translates to power or authority. Without power or authority over nearly every part of our government, there is no democracy. It is just voting and it is venting. It is a pressure release valve to prevent a population from feeling like they have no other way of having their voices heard than to commit acts of violence. I suppose I should have offered up the blue pill to give you an out, but voting in an election and contacting elected officials keeps you pacified, not empowered. I'm not saying that pacification is a bad thing. Revolutions and Civil Wars are awful. That said, the power you think you have is an illusion, and so is democracy in the United States. Like it or not, you live in a republic. I think that is a very good thing.

Sorry AI, I'm siding with honest Abraham Lincoln over you on this one. Oh and Google and the dictionary and pretty much everyone.