Alec Baldwin shoots and kills one, injures another.

[LogGrad98]

What if you don't know much about guns. I could give my daughter a gun and tell her to validate that it is safe but I wouldnt do that due to her lack of gun knowledge/safety. If I did that and she shot someone then I think that would be my fault for giving her the gun.

I have literally seen a man shoot himself in the leg while teaching a gun safety class. He was a professional instructor for gun safety and it happened to him.
Turns out guns are dangerous. Maybe we shouldn't give guns to actors and tell them to point them at other actors and pull the trigger.

You can come up with a million scenarios where exceptions prove the rule. If your daughter has a job that requires her to occasionally handle firearms i would certainly hope she gets at least minimal training on how to handle them. If not, shame on everyone, and in this case, especially shame on the producer (who was Baldwin by the way). The scenarios aren't remotely comparable. Obviously the idea the everyone handling a gun is responsible for handling it safely assumes some basic knowledge of gun safety. What if i go back in time and hand a gun to a cave man and walk away? Doesn't apply in the least.

And the fact that accidents can and do happen just makes it that much more important for people who are expected to handle firearms to get the proper training then to follow that training every time they touch a gun. Obviously the instructor didn't follow all the rules, what a great object lesson, although it sucks for him. Lucky he didn't shoot anyone else.

 

[LogGrad98]

Do we know that Baldwin didn't do what actors normally do when handed a gun? Maybe most all actors do a poor job of checking the gun when it's handed to them (or don't check at all) but it didn't result in someone getting shot because the person that is in charge of the guns (the professional) did they're job.

If he did or didn't due to being an actor shouldn't be an excuse. But people do a lot of stupid things because of habit or carelessness or not using their own brain all the time when they should be. We are creatures of habit and routine. If the normal routine on a movie set when handling a gun is "every gun an actor touches is always safe to point and fire at anyone at any time" well that's one thing. I seriously doubt that but I guess it could be the case. If that is the norm maybe something like this will help change that. Although that's what was said when a similar incident killed Brandon Lee 30 years ago. Apparently these incidents aren't strong enough, or maybe frequent enough, to drive any kind of meaningful change.

 

[fishonjazz]

You can come up with a million scenarios where exceptions prove the rule. If your daughter has a job that requires her to occasionally handle firearms i would certainly hope she gets at least minimal training on how to handle them. If not, shame on everyone, and in this case, especially shame on the producer (who was Baldwin by the way). The scenarios aren't remotely comparable. Obviously the idea the everyone handling a gun is responsible for handling it safely assumes some basic knowledge of gun safety. What if i go back in time and hand a gun to a cave man and walk away? Doesn't apply in the least.

And the fact that accidents can and do happen just makes it that much more important for people who are expected to handle firearms to get the proper training then to follow that training every time they touch a gun. Obviously the instructor didn't follow all the rules, what a great object lesson, although it sucks for him. Lucky he didn't shoot anyone else.

Ok how about this. What if Baldwin was handed the gun, and then he did all the checks he was supposed to do to the best of his ability (like the armorer and everyone else who handled the gun did) and he still shot someone? Then would he still be to blame?

 

[LogGrad98]

Ok how about this. What if Baldwin was handed the gun, and then he did all the checks he was supposed to do to the best of his ability (like the armorer and everyone else who handled the gun did) and he still shot someone? Then would he still be to blame?

I never said he was to blame. There is blame to go around. He carries some of the blame in this instance depending on his actions surrounding handling the gun and if he knowingly hired a crappy armorer, etc. There are some news outlets claiming he was messing around between takes and picked up a gun off the armorer's table and just fired it. Whether that's true or not remains to be seen. But he carries some blame based on the above.

But if he truly was handed a gun, told it was safe, checked it to the best of his knowledge and used it fully as directed then that is called an "accident" and sometime even with the best of intentions they happen. In that case he would of course not be to blame.

Now from everything that is out there it is seems that is not the case. However we really won't know until the investigation is completed.

My point, and I don't want to speak for @Gameface , but I think we were both thinking along the same lines, is that everyone who handles the weapon needs to validate it's safety. They have a responsibility to do that. If that wasn't done at any or even at a few points along the chain of custody then everyone who touched it and didn't do their part are partly culpable. Up to and including the guy that fired it.

 

[RandyForRubio]

Maybe by the movie industry for being stupid enough to use real guns in movies. Do you point real guns at people? Even after you check for certain that they are empty? This is what we are telling actors to do in movies. We are giving actors real guns and literally telling them to aim the real guns at the other actors.
There is the problem.

You know that they don’t point the guns at people, right? It’s all camera tricks. There’s a ton of information on this right now from the professionals on movie standards if you take 5 minutes and google it.

They use real guns for realism and because the standards they typically use ensure that it’s usually safe. They make thousands of movies a year, how many deaths have their been related to guns have their been the past 30 years or so? 3, I believe. All of them because people didn’t follow protocol.

You and others can say it’s not an actors job, but it is. Nic Cage, also an actor, wanted the same armorer fired because he said she wasn’t safe. Experienced actors know what’s right, and what isn’t.

 

[RandyForRubio]

What is the plexiglass for?

In case there’s a wad left over from a blank. It’s a precaution they take out of safety. Usually don’t need it, but they do it to be safe.

Again, ton of information out there right now. You should read some.

 

[fishonjazz]

I was a hunter when I was young. I took some safety classes. I was told that even if you checked that your gun was empty once, twice, 1,000 times you still never point it at a person. And you would certainly never pull the trigger of a gun you are pointing at someone. Even if you checked that it was empty 1,000 times.

With actors however apparently it's more like check the gun and make sure there IS a bullet in there but a fake one. And once you have made sure your fake bullet is properly loaded in your real gun then you are SUPPOSED TO AIM IT AT SOMEONE AND PULL THE TRIGGER.

How does this make any sense?

 

[RandyForRubio]

What if you don't know much about guns. I could give my daughter a gun and tell her to validate that it is safe but I wouldnt do that due to her lack of gun knowledge/safety. If I did that and she shot someone then I think that would be my fault for giving her the gun.

I have literally seen a man shoot himself in the leg while teaching a gun safety class. He was a professional instructor for gun safety and it happened to him.
Turns out guns are dangerous. Maybe we shouldn't give guns to actors and tell them to point them at other actors and pull the trigger.

They all go through safety training courses on guns prior to filming. They’re not going in completely ignorant.

 

[fishonjazz]

You know that they don’t point the guns at people, right? It’s all camera tricks. There’s a ton of information on this right now from the professionals on movie standards if you take 5 minutes and google it.

They use real guns for realism and because the standards they typically use ensure that it’s usually safe. They make thousands of movies a year, how many deaths have their been related to guns have their been the past 30 years or so? 3, I believe. All of them because people didn’t follow protocol.

You and others can say it’s not an actors job, but it is. Nic Cage, also an actor, wanted the same armorer fired because he said she wasn’t safe. Experienced actors know what’s right, 4and what isn’t.

Wait so they use camera tricks to make it appear that they are aiming at each other but they don't use camera tricks, CGI, sound effects to use fake guns and make them appear real. That's dumb. We have so much technology today. Don't need real guns on the set of a movie.

 

[fishonjazz]

They all go through safety training courses on guns prior to filming. They’re not going in completely ignorant.

Lol. There are so many movies made with so many budgets that is impossible for you to know that every goes through safety training.

Anyone with a camera can make a movie. Movies shouldn't be made with real guns.

 

[babe]

Ok how about this. What if Baldwin was handed the gun, and then he did all the checks he was supposed to do to the best of his ability (like the armorer and everyone else who handled the gun did) and he still shot someone? Then would he still be to blame?

Wheth3er he did all the generally advised safety steps, or even more than all that could be done, he is still to blame. Legally. The law breaks out all homicide and accidental deaths with definitions, state by state legally defined. If he owned the gun, or took legal possession of it, he can be included in the civil case on negligence. Negligent homicide. That includes if someone else picks up the gun and uses it. Includes if an employee got the ammo wrong.

The criminal case goes different on intent and specific regulation violations.

Looks like the county in NM is looking into everything, ruling out nothing so far. If they find any circumstance that would suggest possible motive for an intent to kill, they look like they are going to file homicide charges.

If they look at everything and don't file any criminal charge, Baldwin will still face civil charges if the relatives of the dead and injured don't just cut a deal to settle..

 

[fishonjazz]

You know that they don’t point the guns at people, right? It’s all camera tricks. There’s a ton of information on this right now from the professionals on movie standards if you take 5 minutes and google it.

They use real guns for realism and because the standards they typically use ensure that it’s usually safe. They make thousands of movies a year, how many deaths have their been related to guns have their been the past 30 years or so? 3, I believe. All of them because people didn’t follow protocol.

You and others can say it’s not an actors job, but it is. Nic Cage, also an actor, wanted the same armorer fired because he said she wasn’t safe. Experienced actors know what’s right, and what isn’t.

Also, if they don't point guns at people then how do people get shot?

I don't think you are correct that they don't point guns at people. I mean think about all the people on set. Makeup, assistants, camera crew, sound guys, directors, etc etc. Pointing a gun anywhere is going to be pointing it at someone. Especially since in the movie you will be running with the gun, diving, rolling, sweeping your arm to track the bad guys movement.

I have even seen scenes in movies where a guy puts a gun right up against another guys head. Like the barrel is touching the other guys head.