Will the Jazz pick up Udoka’s option?

[Handlogten's Heros]

Nah Drummond stinks. Everyone was going crazy when the Lakers got him but what I suspected happened to a T. No surprises that he came out of that situation as a minimum guy. With Whiteside, he's actually really good at the things he's good at and it theoretically works well in a team concept. He's great at the rim at both ends, and even if he stinks outside of that those are the most important things for a big. Have him be a rim runner on O and play a deep drop on defense....yeah it makes some sense.

Drummond, on the other hand, completely stinks at those things. He rebounds but besides that he doesn't do anything well. Really bad around the basket on offense and on defense he doesn't just chase blocks but also tries to steal every pass. Overall just terrible in the PnR game on both sides while also being awful at most things outside of PnR. Pretty entertaining when he throws behind the back passes though, I'll give you that.

As a 10-12 minute a night regular season backup center... Drummond is just fine. Replace Drummonds name with lesser known guy and you can still be just fine for 10-12 minutes a nigh at the minimum.

There is also the other way to cobble together minutes by going small. You have to adjust the base defense. I know many of us, including you, want that option.

So with all of these just fine options... why marry yourself to some additional salary and a project. @infection has been on this corner too... why spend more to build your own shed when you can buy one at Home Depot already assembled for less? You get a few man points for a DIY project I guess?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It was very easy for him last night, and last season, and the playoffs, and the season before. Jokic dominates everyone and Gobert is no exception.

It is very early on, but the mention of getting cooked by Jokic like it means something is hilarious.

Whiteside bothered one shot in the midrange/rim area for Jokic... which is more than I can say for Rudy the other night. I even said it in the game thread when Whiteside came in that Jokic vs. Whiteside would be ugly. Its a bad matchup and you just hope his size gives you something at the rim and maybe an offensive putback or two.

I don't think Whiteside is playing over his head or anything... I think he will be mostly effective many nights. He will do things that make you cringe... so does JC at times... ride the wave and recognize the good things. I find his interviews and on court stuff hilarious. If he walks the line between keeping things light and being a clown show then I think it might help the locker room too. Can't go all Dwight Howard Fart Mode... but a little light hearted joking and personality can help a locker room be happy.

 

[infection]

So with all of these just fine options... why marry yourself to some additional salary and a project. @infection has been on this corner too... why spend more to build your own shed when you can buy one at Home Depot already assembled for less? You get a few man points for a DIY project I guess?

I actually have a theory on this. When you start getting attention for having some niche or being "the guy" who does "that certain thing," there's often a tendency to play into that and recognize it as an opportunity to bolster that as a legacy. DL hit on Ingles and Royce and it got talked about quite a bit whenever you'd mention DL, or whenever one of those guys got mentioned, about how good DL was finding guys off the scrap heap or putting them through a development system. DL himself would always talk in interviews about how great of a recruitment pitch it is to be able to sell our development and seeing how Ingles and Royce became NBA players. He even mentioned once that he wanted our developmental program to be known so guys who are washed out (he didn't use those words) could come here and rehab their value. I wish I had something to link to because it was bizarre, almost him not realizing that what he's essentially saying is that he wants guys to come here and use us as a stepping stone to moving on to brighter stages. So you look at the position you're in as an executive and you're wanting to leave a stamp and leave a legacy. Part of that is through putting together a winning team and having success there, but then there's another part of legacy that has your name associated with being "that guy" who did "that one thing." So if you're the guy who drafted Exum, or the guy who drafted Udoka, it's also important for your legacy to make sure that works, even if it's not in the best interest of the team. In a situation like this, it can definitely be sunk cost, but the cost (all things considered) shouldn't be too great that it sacrifices the team's position or potential, so you definitely want to preserve that legacy (I know DL isn't here to make that decision but I'll get back to that). You just have some competing ideas here and when we as fans talk about sunk cost, we're purely invested in the team winning. While the executive is also invested in the team winning, they're also invested in themselves winning, so often times what we may be seeing as fans and what they may be doing as executives may be at odds as none of us GAF about the executive's legacy once it's no longer directly tied to what they're currently being paid to do: put a winning team on the floor.

My concern with the sunk cost part now is just how much DLisms are still permeating culture and if we're engaging in certain styles without really questioning why we do it a certain way.

 

[infection]

Whiteside bothered one shot in the midrange/rim area for Jokic... which is more than I can say for Rudy the other night. I even said it in the game thread when Whiteside came in that Jokic vs. Whiteside would be ugly. Its a bad matchup and you just hope his size gives you something at the rim and maybe an offensive putback or two.

I don't think Whiteside is playing over his head or anything... I think he will be mostly effective many nights. He will do things that make you cringe... so does JC at times... ride the wave and recognize the good things. I find his interviews and on court stuff hilarious. If he walks the line between keeping things light and being a clown show then I think it might help the locker room too. Can't go all Dwight Howard Fart Mode... but a little light hearted joking and personality can help a locker room be happy.

I believe Rudy can do a competent job on Jokic. I remember Jokic had a number of games where he was almost shut out and would always get dominated by Rudy. But ever since the bubble Jokic has been throwing it in the ocean. The way Rudy plays, you know he's still trying to cover everything else on the floor, which is why he gives him too much damn space to shoot wide-open threes that will always go in. Quin and the rest of the team need to tell Rudy to get Jokic and play him tight and forget everything else those nights. I think we see that if you take Jokic out of the game that the rest of that team sucks, so we really need to make that adjustment and don't give Rudy any responsibility beyond Jokic.

 

[LogGrad98]

Jokic beats Rudy, sometimes very convincingly. Jokic does not dominate Rudy. I never feel like it's easy for Jokic against Rudy.

And I'm not saying because Jokic beat Whiteside that Whiteside is bad. I'm just saying Whiteside looked bad guarding where he had to make any kind of movements or decisions at all.

Utah has had a cake-walk schedule so far. I'm not sure I can take anything from the schedule thus far.

Yeah it doesn't look like Jokic dominates Rudy. However, Jokic is an MVP level player, arguable the very best at his position in the NBA right now, a seriously good player, so some of this has to be tempered expectations against a player like this. So he will do MVP things.

Here is a head to head comparison for all of their matchups to date:

Games Played Between Rudy Gobert and Nikola Jokic

This is the detail of NBA games in which Rudy Gobert and Nikola Jokic played against each other, including head-to-head record, stats average, game highs and game-by-game data both in the Regular Season and Playoffs.

www.landofbasketball.com

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I actually have a theory on this. When you start getting attention for having some niche or being "the guy" who does "that certain thing," there's often a tendency to play into that and recognize it as an opportunity to bolster that as a legacy. DL hit on Ingles and Royce and it got talked about quite a bit whenever you'd mention DL, or whenever one of those guys got mentioned, about how good DL was finding guys off the scrap heap or putting them through a development system. DL himself would always talk in interviews about how great of a recruitment pitch it is to be able to sell our development and seeing how Ingles and Royce became NBA players. He even mentioned once that he wanted our developmental program to be known so guys who are washed out (he didn't use those words) could come here and rehab their value. I wish I had something to link to because it was bizarre, almost him not realizing that what he's essentially saying is that he wants guys to come here and use us as a stepping stone to moving on to brighter stages. So you look at the position you're in as an executive and you're wanting to leave a stamp and leave a legacy. Part of that is through putting together a winning team and having success there, but then there's another part of legacy that has your name associated with being "that guy" who did "that one thing." So if you're the guy who drafted Exum, or the guy who drafted Udoka, it's also important for your legacy to make sure that works, even if it's not in the best interest of the team. In a situation like this, it can definitely be sunk cost, but the cost (all things considered) shouldn't be too great that it sacrifices the team's position or potential, so you definitely want to preserve that legacy (I know DL isn't here to make that decision but I'll get back to that). You just have some competing ideas here and when we as fans talk about sunk cost, we're purely invested in the team winning. While the executive is also invested in the team winning, they're also invested in themselves winning, so often times what we may be seeing as fans and what they may be doing as executives may be at odds as none of us GAF about the executive's legacy once it's no longer directly tied to what they're currently being paid to do: put a winning team on the floor.

My concern with the sunk cost part now is just how much DLisms are still permeating culture and if we're engaging in certain styles without really questioning why we do it a certain way.

I think the news that DL was the one driving the Udoka pick is likely going to factor in here. If JZ really wants to distance himself from that chain of mistakes he works likely declines the option or moves him. "He was DL's guy... not mine"

I get that GMs want their picks to succeed and it is a little sweeter when it does... which is part of the reason I'd draft prospects that have a chance at playing sooner than later. I'd really focus on wings and perimeter guys more than bigs unless I thought there was a guy like Paschall that could play a bench role in year 1. Drafting a limited center is generally a bad strategy... its made worse when you already have a franchise player at the position. I understand holding on to a guy with perceived upside like Exum and giving it the best chance to succeed. If the idea of Exum became reality then you have something great there. If the idea of Tony Bradley or Udoka become reality what do you have? A backup center who can't shoot? Great... I can get that with a minimum all day every day.

Late firsts rarely hit... when you are shooting the moon shoot for something that is a worthwhile moon shot. Lyles and Exum fails... that's fine... i get what you were going for. Bradley... okay I can excuse this type of mistake once... Udoka... feels like you are trying to get fired.

 

[homeytennis]

There is a rule about not being in the lane longer than three seconds that NBA refs look upon as a suggestion and not a mandate. Jokic routinely violates that rule and torches it most games.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Yeah it doesn't look like Jokic dominates Rudy. However, Jokic is an MVP level player, arguable the very best at his position in the NBA right now, a seriously good player, so some of this has to be tempered expectations against a player like this. So he will do MVP things.

Here is a head to head comparison for all of their matchups to date:

Games Played Between Rudy Gobert and Nikola Jokic

This is the detail of NBA games in which Rudy Gobert and Nikola Jokic played against each other, including head-to-head record, stats average, game highs and game-by-game data both in the Regular Season and Playoffs.

www.landofbasketball.com

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Rudy owned him early in his career... Jokic versus the Jazz the last two years his numbers are insane... like 30 pt + triple double averages on insane efficiency. We all know he got the best of Rudy in the bubble too.

I agree with @infection the strategy has to be to tell Rudy to focus on slowing Jokic and not giving him the jumper. Right now he's getting everything and so is everyone else. Trying to generally good is leading to nothing working. The other route is to let Jokic eat and put someone like Rudy Gay on him for parts of the game and free Rudy up to help more... put him on Aaron Gordon and live or die with his jumper. Its the type of thing that led to Terrence Mann getting 40 against us but I believe in Mann's jumper more than Gordons.

It might just be that Rudy can't take anything off the table for Jokic.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

The thing that seemed to work best was when Favs or even Morgan took Jokic for a few minutes allowing Gobert to help. Jokic may score on those guys in the post but they can float out to the three point line to take some of that away without it being detrimental to rim protection. I think Paschall and Gay are suited to give it a try. It wasn't perfect but they also have a hard time stopping us... so it might be good enough.

 

[infection]

Rudy owned him early in his career... Jokic versus the Jazz the last two years his numbers are insane... like 30 pt + triple double averages on insane efficiency. We all know he got the best of Rudy in the bubble too.

I agree with @infection the strategy has to be to tell Rudy to focus on slowing Jokic and not giving him the jumper. Right now he's getting everything and so is everyone else. Trying to generally good is leading to nothing working. The other route is to let Jokic eat and put someone like Rudy Gay on him for parts of the game and free Rudy up to help more... put him on Aaron Gordon and live or die with his jumper. Its the type of thing that led to Terrence Mann getting 40 against us but I believe in Mann's jumper more than Gordons.

It might just be that Rudy can't take anything off the table for Jokic.

Putting Gay on him would be a good option, too, and may make Rudy more effective if he’s the help defender meeting him at the basket. Of course Jokic can break that down with his passing to the open man.

In any case, my concern is Quin approaching this rigidly, stating that we have to let Rudy do what he does protecting the paint because he’s the DPOY, and won’t cede someone else guarding Jokic because “Rudy is the DPOY.”

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Putting Gay on him would be a good option, too, and may make Rudy more effective if he’s the help defender meeting him at the basket. Of course Jokic can break that down with his passing to the open man.

In any case, my concern is Quin approaching this rigidly, stating that we have to let Rudy do what he does protecting the paint because he’s the DPOY, and won’t cede someone else guarding Jokic because “Rudy is the DPOY.”

I think you could make the case using the same logic. "Hey Rudy... this way you can play like you normally do because you are the DPOY".

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I put Rudy on Aaron Gordon at some point and let Paschall or Gay take a run at Jokic with Gobert helping off of Gordon. Aaron has shot 25% on 3 since going to Denver on a low volume of attempts. Haven't looked at how open they were but I'm daring that guy to shoot. Rudy also did the best job staying in front of him the other night. That would be the next strategy to employ.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

It was very easy for him last night, and last season, and the playoffs, and the season before. Jokic dominates everyone and Gobert is no exception.

It is very early on, but the mention of getting cooked by Jokic like it means is hilarious.

Well idk, I guess if you cant see any nuance between how Jokic was scoring on Whiteside vs Gobert idk what to tell you.

Yeah it doesn't look like Jokic dominates Rudy. However, Jokic is an MVP level player, arguable the very best at his position in the NBA right now, a seriously good player, so some of this has to be tempered expectations against a player like this. So he will do MVP things.

Here is a head to head comparison for all of their matchups to date:

Games Played Between Rudy Gobert and Nikola Jokic

This is the detail of NBA games in which Rudy Gobert and Nikola Jokic played against each other, including head-to-head record, stats average, game highs and game-by-game data both in the Regular Season and Playoffs.

www.landofbasketball.com

View attachment 11311

View attachment 11312

Yes, like I said, he beats him and sometimes very convincingly, but I always feels like he has to work against Gobert. It's not just easy (besides occasionally Rudy is way too far off on the 3).

With Whiteside it just looked like he was going through his entire bag with ease and just dumping him off however he wanted.

Nothing I'm commenting on has to do with stats.