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Let's talk about Quin

infection said:
My fear with losing Quin (or with not really knowing what Smith / Wade / Ainge think of Rudy) is that we accelerate into "Donovan & friends," move on from Rudy, and become Portland.
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I think Ainge actually helps with that a little. He seems less emotional about this stuff... for instance if Ainge was running portland I'm sure CJ would already be gone and likely would be trading Dame right now to rebuild. That team is going nowhere with Dame and doesn't have the assets to retool around him fast enough.
 
The most simple explanation is that Utah plays a math-based basketball game more than anyone else in the NBA. The math is based on the course of an entire game. The Jazz play the smartest basketball possible (for the most part) within the context of a normal NBA game, but the final minutes of a game are much different. Normal plays arent run as often, there is less passing, there is less pace, there are less fast-breaks, things slow down, fouls arent called as much, ego plays a bigger role in player decision making, etc.

I think the biggest thing on offense would be trying to hit Gobert more. The Jazz are already awful at trusting Gobert to catch anything, but during the clutch minutes there's even more indecision.

Defensively it just is what it is unless Donovan is able to become the kind of player who can really turn on a defensive switch and become a lockdown guard defender for 3-5 minutes per game to end the game.

Bojan is what he is on defense. He's never going to be a good rebounder so Utah's going to continue to give up big offensive rebounds in clutch minutes because only Rudy/Royce/Mitchell are capable rebounders and/or capable of difficult 50/50 rebounds (meaning high amount of hustle or vertical snagging ability needed). And Donovan barely qualifies.


But it just seems to implausible to sit Bogey when he's an absolute flamethrower on offense.

I would like to see Utah crash the glass more in clutch minutes. Teams tend to slow down the offense a bit in clutch minutes so try harder to punish that by being more aggressive on the offensive glass. I would have to pay attention to this more to see if this is something does already, or maybe they do the opposite of it. I'm not sure. But then again, the Jazz still lack that additional energy type guy who can actually regularly make these kind of hustle plays in clutch minutes.
 
This builds on some of the sentiments from @infection and @Handlogten's Heros ....

I wouldn’t define any of Quin’s best teams by their heart or grit. The definition comes much more through the cerebral way a system is consistently run. And that system is chosen for its statistical merits, rather than something that will/can adjust to heart or passion.

More than 10 years ago I used to make coaching analogies using the example of Mike Shannahan versus Bill Belichick. Both were premiere coaches at the time, and I would sometimes have to argue with people that Belichick was better (a debate that’s laughable at this point in history). Anyway, the gist of the argument was how Shannahan ran a system first and foremost; talent was acquired to support that system or it was made to adjust to that system. Belichick had a much better eye for talent first and foremost, and then an insane ability to build schematics/systems around it.

Q is much more of a Shannahan, I’m afraid.
 
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Saint Cy of JFC said:
The most simple explanation is that Utah plays a math-based basketball game more than anyone else in the NBA. The math is based on the course of an entire game. The Jazz play the smartest basketball possible (for the most part) within the context of a normal NBA game, but the final minutes of a game are much different. Normal plays arent run as often, there is less passing, there is less pace, there are less fast-breaks, things slow down, fouls arent called as much, ego plays a bigger role in player decision making, etc.

I think the biggest thing on offense would be trying to hit Gobert more. The Jazz are already awful at trusting Gobert to catch anything, but during the clutch minutes there's even more indecision.

Defensively it just is what it is unless Donovan is able to become the kind of player who can really turn on a defensive switch and become a lockdown guard defender for 3-5 minutes per game to end the game.

Bojan is what he is on defense. He's never going to be a good rebounder so Utah's going to continue to give up big offensive rebounds in clutch minutes because only Rudy/Royce/Mitchell are capable rebounders and/or capable of difficult 50/50 rebounds (meaning high amount of hustle or vertical snagging ability needed). And Donovan barely qualifies.


But it just seems to implausible to sit Bogey when he's an absolute flamethrower on offense.

I would like to see Utah crash the glass more in clutch minutes. Teams tend to slow down the offense a bit in clutch minutes so try harder to punish that by being more aggressive on the offensive glass. I would have to pay attention to this more to see if this is something does already, or maybe they do the opposite of it. I'm not sure. But then again, the Jazz still lack that additional energy type guy who can actually regularly make these kind of hustle plays in clutch minutes.
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In the clutch I think we have been okay on offense... it generally gums up a little for every team. As far as adjustments I just like the ball in Mike's hand at least to start the possession. He is the most capable guy we have setting people up. Donovan is capable of it but in the clutch he turns one dimensional too much. He still does pretty well... the end of game play where he shoots a fade away is a failure of the coach, and the whole team tbh. I think Donovan is better as a decoy in those situations and you hit Bojan for a three.... if it is a 2-3 seconds left catch and shoot situation.

The defense is the issue... we couldn't get any stops at all... and this is where I'd love an adjustment or two in the coverages. We have to make the initial read harder. Last night the Hornets, who are a terrible defensive team, adjusted and started blitzing the pick and rolls... it ended up getting them back in the game... later they got torched when we dropped the ball down to Rudy and started to hit some shots... but a ****** team was able to adjust. When it comes down to like 10 possessions and you only get like 1-2 stops then who cares if you blitz and end up giving up an easy shot. You also might force a turnover... then they also have to think. I also wouldn't mind just bringing Rudy a little higher so they can't get the easy midrange. And maybe you tell guys to over-rotate a bit... mike, Don and Royce are good at getting in the passing lanes at times. And maybe its not the end of game time to do it... but maybe when you get the 17 point lead you tell the guys we are going to adjust a little and maybe it gets them more engaged and puts you a step ahead of the adjustment that is certainly coming.

The starters are the group that should finish... although Quin really needs to start going offense/defense subs when there is like 40 seconds left and you can call a timeout. Get Gay on the floor for rebounding and secondary rim protection. Its the in between minutes we just need a shot of life. Sometimes JC gives that with his shot making but that is wildly inconsistent this year and doesn't complement the other stuff we have as much as an energetic defender/toughguy/agitator would. Marcus Smart, Josh Hart, etc. may not be available... but maybe you could snake a guy like David Nwaba... we just need a guy who is going to bring some energy and try to hurt people's feelings. I think Don has some dog in him that would come out more if there was someone to get that energy started.
 
As for playoff coaching, I think it's worth recognizing that Quin has done a great job the past two years throwing the first punch. There was a reason we were up 3-1 against Denver and 2-0 vs the Clippers. I remember thinking against Denver that Quin was the much better coach, until the collapse.

The problem with Quin is he isn't able to counter once he's been punched back. Denver made adjustments and we couldn't figure it out. The Clippers made adjustments and we really couldn't figure it out. I think this goes back to rigidly sticking with statistical basketball and not expirementing in the regular season to have more counters available.
 
Be careful what you wish for. Things may not be ideal at the moment but Quin is one of the leagues better coaches. Guys talking about playoffs success while taking regular season for granted. I mean Indiana is already trying to tear it all down despite having a great roster and Rick Carlisle as their HC simply because they are struggling to make the playoffs. Is that what we are trying to become?
 
Quin is a brilliant offensive coach. Jazz built a historic offensive team and role players constantly step up offensively to contribute. Jazz generate tons of open shots with only 1 true offensive superstar. It works even when Conley is the only player that has a steady hand. Jazz do well in transition even though they don't have open-court players. The system works against multiple coverages. It even got tons better against switches.

Defensively, I think he was always a tad overrated because of Rudy but the current Jazz problems are more personnel related than anything. No one (smart) was complaining about our defense in the last Hou series when we whipped up a new scheme. Jazz always did well defensively with Fave at 4 or Jae Crowder. Jazz lost too many good defenders to recoup that defensive level.

Hayward was a pretty good defender before his injuries. Hill was decent. Fave was versatile enough and did great as a secondary rim protector. Exum was a phenomenal iso defender. Udoh was almost a DPOY level player with no offense. Rubio and Thabo was smart. Booker was tough. Crowder hustled and rebounded even though he wasn't a great one-on-one defender. Ingles wasn't decrepit and could follow Redick around(imagine that now).

Jazz desperately need to infuse defensive talent but with the way the roster is constructed, it's tough and has to come from within the rotation. Gay needs to quickly build chemistry and play defense, Mitchell needs to lockdown, Clarkson is putting up the effort but he needs to be smart.
 
I mean if we let go of Quin I think we all know who is coming... Ainge likely set an evil master plan up to leave Boston and get Stevens fired as the GM so he could hire him as the coach again here. Then we get a 37 YO Gordon Hayward back.
 
Hekate said:
Quin is a brilliant offensive coach. Jazz built a historic offensive team and role players constantly step up offensively to contribute. Jazz generate tons of open shots with only 1 true offensive superstar. It works even when Conley is the only player that has a steady hand. Jazz do well in transition even though they don't have open-court players. The system works against multiple coverages. It even got tons better against switches.

Defensively, I think he was always a tad overrated because of Rudy but the current Jazz problems are more personnel related than anything. No one (smart) was complaining about our defense in the last Hou series when we whipped up a new scheme. Jazz always did well defensively with Fave at 4 or Jae Crowder. Jazz lost too many good defenders to recoup that defensive level.

Hayward was a pretty good defender before his injuries. Hill was decent. Fave was versatile enough and did great as a secondary rim protector. Exum was a phenomenal iso defender. Udoh was almost a DPOY level player with no offense. Rubio and Thabo was smart. Booker was tough. Crowder hustled and rebounded even though he wasn't a great one-on-one defender. Ingles wasn't decrepit and could follow Redick around(imagine that now).

Jazz desperately need to infuse defensive talent but with the way the roster is constructed, it's tough and has to come from within the rotation. Gay needs to quickly build chemistry and play defense, Mitchell needs to lockdown, Clarkson is putting up the effort but he needs to be smart.
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That 2018 roster would have taken us just about as far as we have with this current roster. What we needed back then was some minor adjustment by adding a couple of good shooters and guys who could create his own shot(JC or Bogey, for example) and keep everything else unchanged. Instead, what we got was an unnecessary roster overhaul that set our defense backwards significantly, losing several key assets like draft picks and salary maneuverability along the way that prevent us from progressing any further.
 
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