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Rebuild vs status quo

BluesRocker

BluesRocker

Banned
I am of the opinion that the Jazz should go into full rebuild mode instead of trying to win now. Here's why. Al Jefferson, Raja Bell, CJ miles, Memo Okur, Devin Harris, and to some extent Paul Millsap aren't the players that are going to lead us to a championship. They are good players and could be a playoff team. But they are not going to beat any of the top teams. Maybe if our Four Young Core (Hayward, Burks, Favors, Kanter) were a little older and they were playing together. Then we would be probably pretty darn good. But I don't think any of those young guys are going to be championship ready this year or even next. I do believe Favors is going to be a beast. But it's going to take some more time. Hayward and Burks definitely have the potential to be very good too. Kanter is still a maybe for me. His athleticism is a question mark.

So what this all adds up to is. If we go for it now, we are going to be just somewhere in the middle of mediocrity hell. Good enough for the eight seed, not good enough for the lottery. I hate that place. The only way we ever win a championship is we have to get a collection of Stars to compete with the "Superteams". And the only way we do that is we have to draft them. We know they aren't coming here free agency! So what I am suggesting. We take any trade offered for the players mentioned above as so long as it involves next year’s unprotected lottery picks from crappy teams.

Here's why. Next year’s draft is loaded. Or so it seems. So by trading away some of those guys mentioned above, we will be a lottery team. So we will have our pick, GS's pick, and maybe one or two more. This could turn out to be 3-4 top ten picks next year. We want these because of the major Bird rights that come with getting those players. You are guaranteed to have them for many years depending on their deal. That's creates an environment like OKC where the players don't feel they need to leave for greener pastures because they are surrounded by talent. And they know they have a legitimate chance at a championship. And with all those top ten picks over the years it is very likely that we will have at least 2 or more superstars that will grow together and want to play together.

Also I have to point out that if best case scenario happened, we end up with 5 or 6 Superstars. Then we would be a juggernaut for a decade. This will be a key moment in Jazz history what we do here. We can be stuck in the middle forever or finally be a Championship team. The Stars could be aligning here for us folks. Let's hope Jazz Brass make the right decision here. And if the plan fails then well it's better to be in the lottery for a few years with the chance of landing the next transcendent player. Rather than never getting the chance to get the Guy! We will never win a championship without one. That's just the way the NBA works.
 
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Actually, trading D Will started the rebuild mode. Standing pat now is a part of the rebuilding process (better draft picks next year). So imo they are rebuilding as we speak.
 
You throw around the word "superstar" like every draft has a handful of them. In the entire NBA there are about 10 or so true "superstars". If the Jazz can land 2 between what we have now and the next few drafts, we would be very fortunate.

I agree with the total rebuild idea. I would rather see quality minutes to young players rather than played who have been in the league 5+ years. I hope we have a superstar on the team already (Favors), but be caeful asking for 5 or 6 "superstars".
 
Forgive me, but this is stupid! I didn't bother to read anyone's posts in this stupid thread. I'm not trying to be a troll or aggravate anyone. I strongly believe winning breeds winning, you can quot me on that!

In my eyes losing is never acceptable under any circumstances. I believe as coach or owner you put your team and players in position to succeed. I don't care if the next Jordan Shaq or Malone is in the upcoming draft.

Rebuild is a word losers use as an excuse, it's a word losers use to make them feel better. I guess I'm old school. I hear lots of people say "give the youg guys the playing time". "They need time on the court to get better" That in my mind is false. If they are ready they will get the minutes. If they aren't ready let them sit learn patience and the game. Let them wait for there shot. Far to often some of these hotshot young upstarts want it all right now and find they can't handle the rigors of the pros, lose confidence and are never heard from again.

Those that are patient work and wait there turn learn the nuances of the game and winning intangibles, learn their roles that help the team win. Today everyone wants to be the star. Winning ball doesn't work like that. Rebuild is a word we use for teams that suck and don't know how to win.

I say we have the players in place to win now I think we have two future stars in Hayward, and Favors, we need to surround them with players that know their roles we dont need more stars we don't need to lose games to get more players! If we win players that can help the team win will want to play here. I'm not talking about the stars I'm talking about the better role players we need to build a cohesive unit to build winning. Both Favors and Hayward sat the bench and learned the game, and when there numbers were called they were prepared and played well. Because they were prepared when they got the chance there weren't any surprises. Now they will be ready to take the next step by doing the heavy lifting for this team.

I think Kanter has a bright future in the league. But giving him minutes this year will hurt the jazz, sorry Sepanol. He in my opinion should be behind Jefferson favors Millsap and even Okur (if healthy) and Evans. Burks our other lotto pick, I feel is a little more ready for minutes then Kanter. He should start behind Hayward, Harris, Miles, Watson, but ahead of Bell. The players we have now is enough to construct a team to contend for a championship we have one more lottery pick coming via the Warriors, let's hope the guys we have can learn together how to win. If that means Kanter starts his career with no minutes and Burks gets sporadic minutes like Hayward did last year then that's what it takes.

Remember it took 12 or 13 years of status quo before John and Karl were championship worthy. Even Jordan considered the greatest of all time lived with status quo for his first seven years before he learned what he needed to do to be championship caliber learning to win is a long process it isn't achieved by losing. Greatness and winning is achieved throu blood sweat and tears. There is no quick fixes. There is no shortcuts I even heard Stockton call it the greatest journey If we choose to rebuild it will be harder to teach and learn a winning attitude. Losing destroys a persons will, if no will that means no spirit no spirit no winning.

In response to the question rebuild or status quo I pick status quo! If we go into rebuild mode we will never reach the pinnacle of winning!

Sorry for the rant, but I feel very strong about the subject.
 
i agree completely with Thee jazz fan. If you aren't trying to win as much as possible, all the time, right now... you shouldn't be in the league.
 
orangello said:
Tell that to OKC about 3 years ago.
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Same could be said about Toronto, Charlotte, Clippers, Sacramento etc. The reason OKC made the big jump is because they drafted a Top 5 NBA player over the next decade, in Kevin Durant, not because they put "player development ahead of winning". Yes, all of our core needs serious amounts of playing time, but we simply cannot completely tank our season for the sake of offering more than enough minutes to them, in my opinion.
 
This argument again. Ugh. Utah has had very few high draft picks in the last 30 years. I think a lot of people around are getting a little draft pick happy because it's been such an unusual place for the franchise to be. 2K might have a little to do with it as well.

There is a tried and true cycle of suck in which teams continually draft lottery picks and jettison earlier ones that they failed to develop. There are also many examples of teams committing to a limited number of talented players and building around them. Utah right now has 4 lottery picks from the last two years. Some of you guys might think this is nuts but the Jazz are borderline having too many young players as it is. Now it is true that having this ridiculous number of high picks can be seen as a numbers game and the odds of getting a couple elite players out of the 6 in 3 years probably are good. But the other side of that is the players have to be developed and have to learn to play together within a system. In order for that to happen it is essential to have respectable veteran players that buy in.

I'm not saying that there is no possible move that would make the team better but I will definitely stand on the premise that failing to attempt to win will do more harm at this point than the good of one more high pick. It is also a fact that there isn't anybody on the team whose contract is an obstacle to extending any of the new young talent. If that was the case of course something would have to be done, but even then maybe not right away.

As far as playing time/development, Hayward has earned a starting spot already. Favors is probably very close to nailing down PF considering the quotes we are hearing from Sap. Kanter is very unlikely to be ready for a lot of responsibility but is also one unreliable/not very good Memo away from being the #2 center anyways. It has been my opinion for a while now that Kanter will benefit greatly from practicing with somebody who possesses footwork like Jefferson's.

Burks will have great competition with CJ and Bell to find his role and if he's anywhere near as good as advertised he should have no problem earning a role just like Hayward did. If he isn't then we need CJ and Bell to cover backup wing spots. Best case is we all argue over who starts at two spots between him, Hayward and Sap.

Finally, the coach has got to be given a chance to install his identity on the team and although this group has so much youth there are enough vets to give the team a chance to find that. IMO this is more important than making sure we protect our pick. I want to develop the guys we have but that doesn't mean abandoning the goal of rebuilding a winning culture within the organization and team.
 
Three Jazz Fan, have you by chance ever been kicked out of a little league sporting event?
 
“Winning Breeds Winning "

What is that? I've heard that before, but it doesn't say anything.
If a great player chokes in a big game right after winning a bunch of games.. what does that mean?

The answer is... NOTHING! Just like “Winning breeds winning “means nothing.

What does it mean? That you are more likely to win because you have been used to winning, therefore you know how to win in the future? Does it mean? Your spirit is less scarred because you have avoided the hurt of loss, therefore you will have more confidence to do the same in the future? All the stars lost before they won! So what hell does Winning breeds Winning mean?

How often does a team win a championship without a transcendent super star, or two? Even the Mavericks had Dirk. The pistons are the exception. Everyone else has had a once in a life time player or two on the same team. Championships are won because a team has Dominant combination of talent with a great player. Not because an over achiever has a lot of heart. That's fantasy believing. That's not reality. It takes that plus a gift of Physical Gifts. And those gifts aren't the likes of Al Jefferson, Memo Okur, and Paul Millsap. We are all praying that Favors has it. But we all get the feeling that even he won't have enough.

The point is that times have changed. Just have they have always changed. And they will continue to change. Teams and players are adapting to their new environment. Players aren't old school any more. Money is more of a factor. Championships mean more from a money and marketability standpoint. Pride still has more to do with it than anything else. Yes. But people are different. What's exceptable now wasn't so acceptable back then. Players are willing to give up all the credit for more of a chance of winning a championship. Meaning they don't take it as a pride hit if they join up with another star. Meaning they will now join up with there once main opponent. Imagine if Jordan, Shaq, and Dwight Howard were on the same team! Or if Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan, and Blake Griffin were on the same team! Oh? It only took Kobe and Shaq for three? Mike and Pipp for 6? Duncan for 4? Hakeem 2? Magic 5? Bird 3? Bill Russell 11 ? For crying out loud. One guy has eleven rings. That doesn't say enough?

It's about odds. Odds are that you need one of the best for the best chance to win a championship. And you can't get one of those players in a trade! You can't get one of those players if you play in a small market via free agency. Period! Not the Jazz. You can only get them in the draft. And the odds are that we are going to need Favors plus someone else or two to be able to equal enough talent.

Enough with all the old school thinking. The stars aren't thinking that they can wait 12 or 13 years to finally get to compete for a championship. They want it now. Just like our whole country is has grown impatient and become an instant gratification society. It's no longer about the pride of doing it for the team that drafted you. Teams have to compete even harder to keep their players. Or the threat looms of them leaving you if you aren't successful in helping them win. I know it stinks! I agree. But we have to accept change and how reality changes in every year of our lives. I don't like change any more than anyone else. It's uncomfortable. But I know I have to accept it if it's out of my control to change it. The idea that old school is supposed to carry over into the future is not reality. Ideas do not transcend in the terms of basketball strategy. Only toughness and human will power does. And losing doesn't destroy a man's ability to win. Garnett lost forever and finally got some help and won a championship. Stockton and Malone had a lot of will power but not enough physical gifts to overcome Jordan’s gifts. And don't compare Jordan to other Jumpers! Jordan invented flying through the air. The likes of we still haven't seen ever again still to this day. No player has had the combination of size and power that Shaq had!

So the idea of hanging on to mediocre players just to keep a winning attitude around is LU...DA...CRIS! It's self destructive in this environment. It's a fantasy. I want the good guys and good stories to always win too. But that is not reality. So can we drop this Boy Scout attitude on how to win NBA Championships? And get with the times and reality of our world? Bigger Stronger Faster = Better and more efficient... Stud > over Regular guy = Wins. And none of this means that I have to sacrifice my values for a championship and go after bad people good players. Give me Tim Duncan. I'll take 4 Championships.

In Closing ...I guess it just comes down to what is exceptable in this town. As long as the fans will continue to sell out for a team that will at least make the playoffs but doesn't have to win big. Then I gues this is the team for you? But it's not for me. I think we need to take some chances right now. Success is created by taking chances.
 
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Thee jazz fan said:
They are the exception. Don't forget about teams like the Clipers, Bobcats, Nets, and others. OKC is very lucky they got Durant. Remember Oden was the can't miss player.
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Durant is a great player. I think we can all agree to that, but giving Durant all the credit for getting OKC to where they are now is pure ignorant. Other players like Westbrook, Green, Harden and Ibaka have allowed for OKC to grow into what they are today. If you have not heard, Sam Presti, the GM for the Thunder traded away the starting PG at the time the Thunder drafted Westbrook so that he could get up to a pro level faster. Look at Westbrook now. Is he a loser? No. Is his spirit broken? No. OKC is a very smart franchise. They got themselves a superstar in Durant but without getting the other pieces up to speed quickly then they would not be the team they are today.

If we go with your opinion that losing breeds losers then what is Jefferson doing on the team?(Jefferson's record while he has been in the league is 202-332, or in other words, he has a losing mentality) Why is Watson a piece that the Jazz and the fan base want back? Didn't Millsap play for Louisiana Tech? What was their record when Millsap played for them? (Their record was 49-43, not what I would call a successful team) Didn't Devin Harris play for a team that set the league record for longest losing streak?

Either we are building the team in a way that some of you (Thee Jazz fan) feel is a "losers way", or we have already put together a losing team. Either way we lose if we go off of your argument. I love your optimism for the Jazz. (Sarcasm in case you missed it)

So, with all of that being said, how do we get the Jazz back on track? It seems to me that we have a team filled with losers that have broken spirits as well as young guys that need to be taught how to win with those same "losers". How do we get out of this mess? (That question is directed to Thee Jazz fan, footawn, dalamon and Brown Notes)
 
OKC traded Green last year for a bad Center. Which was stupid since they already had one. Kristic =/< Perkins? No.

So, whoops.
 
I have optimism for the Jazz. That's why I'm advocating going for the gusto right now and saying we have a golden opportunity in front of us
 
Let this team play. We do not know anything about this squad right now, they are brand-spanking new. We gotta see what we got before we do anything crazy at this point. Let them play and find their identity and see where they can take us, as is, right now.

But please, for the love of all that is holy, do NOT give CJ and Bell more than 10 minutes per game between them.


Please.




Pretty please.
 
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