Culture of winning or tank?

[fishonjazz]

How did the Spurs get Tim Duncan again?

I don't see their fans moaning about winning 5 Championships by tanking that 1 year…

But tanking for duncan cost the spurs their winning culture!


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[fishonjazz]

I remember way back when, when we had a team who's best players were Andrei Kirilenko, Raja Bell, and Carlos Arroyo. We won 42 games that year, and it drew attention from players across the league so much that we had Kenyon Martin considering signing with us.

Of course, we went with the better choice and got Boozer, but we also got Memo.

There's guys out there that will see the winning, positive culture and want to buy in if we do excess expectations and become a Cinderella storyesque team.

There's always the chance that Brooklyn has loads of chemistry issues and has a very bad year. I think this teams culture, and chemistry, and playstyle is too good to tank.

I hope you also remember that the biggest reason we were good again soon after than is because we got the #3 pick and drafted deron williams.


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[fishonjazz]

The Spurs didn't tank to get Duncan. Their best player got hurt, didn't play most of the year, and their other good players fell off a cliff in production.

On the flip side, the team that did tank for Duncan, the Celtics, didn't get him.

They could have played david robinson and won more games. They chose to tank instead.


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[fishonjazz]

No one said we couldn't do both. In my mind though, culture is more difficult to rebuild than talent. If the roster somehow pulls a .500 season despite the current headwinds, then Ainge, Zanick, and Hardy are in a good position in regard to the latter. That means their valuable players on the roster who are doing the right things. You can always acquire more people with the skills, but mindset is a more difficult beast.

Not to go life coach, but I'm a firm believer that you cannot teach mindset. Rather, that's something learned through experience and self-realization. In most cases, for someone to move beyond their current station, they first have to WANT to do that. If this club pulls a play-in type of season despite the gauntlet of great teams they will push through, that means there's something there that needs to be built around and encouraged.

Eh, if you have enough talent then a winning culture happens no matter what.
Do you think the cavs had an amazing winning culture the year before they drafted lebron? Of course not. They sure did win a lot of games once they got lebron though. Culture went from losing to winning 10 seconds after they selected lebron with the #1 pick.


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[fishonjazz]

Over the last 20 years, how many players picked in the top 3 of the draft (the top 60 draft choices over the past two decades) helped the team that drafted him (without first belonging to any subsequent teams) to win a championship by being the best player on the team?

0

How many even made the finals in this context?

3 (Jayson Tatum, Dwight Howard, Kevin Durant). (A few others could conceivably get there still, though just a few.)

How long do you have to go back before you find a player that was drafted in the top 3 that won his team a championship (without switching teams first)?

25 years (Duncan -- but maybe even he shouldn't count, because his team was certainly not gutted in the process of achieving the draft pick)



So that's basically 1 draft pick out of the last 75 top picks who has won his team a championship as the best player without changing teams first (as Lebron did). Wemby may indeed be great, but we're still fighting long odds if we think he's the simple meal-ticket to a championship.

You could probably do the same thing for any scenario. Winning championships is hard. Best way to do it is to have the most talent.
How many teams in the last 50 years won the championship based simply on heart, hustle, scrappiness, and gumption rather than having the most talent?


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[idiot]

You could probably do the same thing for any scenario. Winning championships is hard. Best way to do it is to have the most talent.
How many teams in the last 50 years won the championship based simply on heart, hustle, scrappiness, and gumption rather than having the most talent?


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This was not just "any scenario" I was exploring. This is the scenario that so many are saying is our only realistic chance to get a championship.

I agree with you that winning a championship is hard. I agree that top-tier talent is needed. I agree that tanking vs winning culture is at least partly a false choice. I just don't totally buy the argument that our only serious way to make these achievements is by tanking the bejeezus out of one or multiple seasons. In fact, I think the historical evidence shows how unlikely it is to win a championship through primarily a tanking strategy.

If the Jazz put all their eggs in the tanking basket, I'll understand the rationale. If they don't, I hardly think that we're losing any chance of ever winning a championship.

 

[The Midnight]

They didn't out-tank us, they out-tanked someone else (looks like Raptors). We would've had the 18th pick (Terrence Jones), but it was traded.
(Next year we got their 21st pick (Dieng) which was traded in the Trey Burke trade.)

Oh ok but I remember us beating them in the final game of the season that led to the coin toss that we eventually lost? Did I remember that right?

 

[The Midnight]

I’ll just leave this here as I think it’s pertinent to the discussion at hand…


View: https://youtu.be/47DmUM7MW7s

 

[hgb]

Oh ok but I remember us beating them in the final game of the season that led to the coin toss that we eventually lost? Did I remember that right?

No, they lost against someone else (Spurs, and they had to fight them for it), but I seem to recall some other year where we won the final game to put us in a coin-toss or something. That said, I also seem to recall we lost a spectacular trainwreck in Kobe's final game that also gave us a better pick.

 

[Eddie Zero]

tanking is for losers lol

 

[LogGrad98]

You could probably do the same thing for any scenario. Winning championships is hard. Best way to do it is to have the most talent.
How many teams in the last 50 years won the championship based simply on heart, hustle, scrappiness, and gumption rather than having the most talent?


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2

Toronto and Detroit.

 

[HeatCheck]

2

Toronto and Detroit.

Kawhi was probably the best player in the league that season for Toronto.

I'll give you that Detroit team with Rip, Chauncey, Big Ben, Wallace, Prince that upset Kobe/Shaq in the Finals.