Game Thread Mar 20, 2023 07:00PM MT: Jazz vs. Kings

[Watcher]

People are really underrating Rudy's screening and rim-running. That's offense, too, and it was a huge part of an elite Jazz offense.

Valid point.

 

[fishonjazz]

Another feather in Kessler cap is that his star teammate (and other teammates) really seems to like him. Gobert seemed to rub everyone the wrong way (except neto)

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Gobert would look pretty damn good in Kessler's spot, better than he does in Minny. I'm not sure he would be 36 million dollars better, but he would be killing it.

Some of it's team and coaching, but watching Gobert this year it is obvious he isn't the same player. I'm not sure if it's just a down year or if he's just declining with age.

 

[hgb]

Just for fun here are all the #4 and #15s from 2000 to 2020, 21 and 22 are too soon to tell really...

2000 - Marcus Fizer vs Jason Collier
2001 - Eddy Curry vs Steven Hunter
2002 - Drew Gooden vs Bostjan Nachbar
2003 - Chris Bosch vs Reece Gaines
2004 - Shaun Livingston vs Al Jefferson
2005 - Chris Paul vs Antoine Wright
2006 - Tyrus Thomas vs Cedric Simmons
2007 - Mike Conley vs Rodney Stuckey
2008 - Russell Westbrook vs Robin Lopez
2009 - Tyreke Evans vs Austin Daye
2010 - Wesley Johnson vs Larry Sanders
2011 - Tristan Thompson vs Kawhi Leonard
2012 - Dion Waiters vs Maurice Harkless
2013 - Cody Zeller vs Giannis Antetokoumpo
2014 - Aaron Gordon vs Adreian Payne
2015 - Kristapz Porzingas vs Kelly Oubre
2016 - Dragan Bender vs Juancho Hernangomez
2017 - Josh Jackson vs Justin Jackson
2018 - Jaren Jackson vs Troy Brown
2019 - D'Andre Hunter vs Sekou Doumbouya
2020 - Patrick Williams vs Cole Anthony

By my reckoning, 4 absolutely destroyed 15 in 5 or maybe 6 of these years. 15 destroyed 4 in 3, maybe 4 years on a stretch. The rest were roughly even, imo.

There's Giannis and Kawhi obviously, but who's the third?

I'd say Bosch, CP3, Conley, Gordon, Westbrook and probably JJJ (a little early to say) for 4th and Giannis and Kawhi for 15. Big Al had so much less injuries than Livingston, so I guess he wins too, but Livingston did manage to carve out a decent career too in the end.

So out of 21 years, 4 was the better choice 6/21 or about 30% of the time. 15 was the better choice 4/21 or about 20% of the time and the other half of the time it was fairly a crap shoot with busts and ok players coming in both positions.

Interesting. Of course a lot of this depends on your analysis of player impact and for me, just now, I did it on my gut, no stats. So take that for what it's worth.

Another interesting list would be to see e.g. 4-7 vs 14-17 or something like that. Takes away the outliers like Kawhi and Giannis, but also a lot of work to compile and compare the lists...

 

[fishonjazz]

Another thing I really like about Kessler vs Gobert

Whenever I would talk jazz with fellow jazz fans they would inevitably bring up Goberts lack of offensive ability and talk about how he cant catch a pass or make a layup or bring up his shaqtin a fool moments or terrance mann or whatever and then I would have to get into an argument with them telling them about things like rim running and screen assists and the space his rim running creates and his advanced stats and plus minus and on off etc etc. And they would still just say he sucks and piss me off.

With Kessler whenever I talk to jazz fans about him they simply agree that he is phenomenal for a rookie and are super excited to have him on the jazz. Despite him being just as limited offensively lol.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Another feather in Kessler cap is that his star teammate (and other teammates) really seems to like him. Gobert seemed to rub everyone the wrong way (except neto)

He's also playing with a European star and not a scoring diva.

 

[Watcher]

Could be wrong if Kessler really develops offensively with post moves/jumper, but his FT shooting doesn't give me great hope for the kind of leap that would be necessary to make him a better offensive player than peak Gobert.

It's surprising to me that you would call out FT shooting as the thing that doesn't give you great hope. Gobert improved his FT shooting all the way from really bad to just bad (though admittedly pretty decent in clutch situations) and you think that's what makes him stand out from Kessler? And you don't feel like rookie Kessler could improve to at least Gobert's level there?

Because Gobert is decent in clutch situations at least he took away the "hack a Gobert" strategy. It's still probably a valid strategy against Kessler. But my opinion is that won't stay that way.

 

[Udidthizz]

Another thing I really like about Kessler vs Gobert

Whenever I would talk jazz with fellow jazz fans they would inevitably bring up Goberts lack of offensive ability and talk about how he cant catch a pass or make a layup or bring up his shaqtin a fool moments or terrance mann or whatever and then I would have to get into an argument with them telling them about things like rim running and screen assists and the space his rim running creates and his advanced stats and plus minus and on off etc etc. And they would still just say he sucks and piss me off.

With Kessler whenever I talk to jazz fans about him they simply agree that he is phenomenal for a rookie and are super excited to have him on the jazz. Despite him being just as limited offensively lol.

It’s somewhat similar with Mitchell, who was called a chucker by about 50% of the people.

To be honest, it almost feels a little embarrassing with all the love Kessler is getting.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

It's surprising to me that you would call out FT shooting as the thing that doesn't give you great hope. Gobert improved his FT shooting all the way from really bad to just bad (though admittedly pretty decent in clutch situations) and you think that's what makes him stand out from Kessler? And you don't feel like rookie Kessler could improve to at least Gobert's level there?

Because Gobert is decent in clutch situations at least he took away the "hack a Gobert" strategy. It's still probably a valid strategy against Kessler. But my opinion is that won't stay that way.

You just said a lot of stuff I did not say.

For Kessler to be better offensively than Gobert he will need to develop skill in a way Gobert did not because Gobert had the vertical reach to be a massive rim threat. All I'm saying is that WK being such a poor FT shooter now doesn't give me great hope for his skill ceiling. Anything can happen though, but he is not starting at a promising baseline.

 

[fishonjazz]

He's also playing with a European star and not a scoring diva.

Ya but gobert seemed to annoy lots of people. Fans, media, players of other teams, other teammates besides donovan. Just didn't seem very likeable to very many people.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Ya but gobert seemed to annoy lots of people. Fans, media, players of other teams, other teammates besides donovan. Just didn't seem very likeable to very many people.

Media liked him enough to give him 3x dpoy

 

[fishonjazz]

Media liked him enough to give him 3x dpoy

I agree that they recognized his defensive ability

 

[Elizah Huge]

Kessler as a prospect is already light years ahead of where Gobert was at the same age. Kessler now as a rookie compares extremely well against year 4 and year 5 Gobert.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I just find the "I like Kessler more than Gobert because a bunch of people who didn't know jackshit about basketball hated on Gobert and I'm insecure about my basketball team" lame AF.

 

[Ron Mexico]

You just said a lot of stuff I did not say.

For Kessler to be better offensively than Gobert he will need to develop skill in a way Gobert did not because Gobert had the vertical reach to be a massive rim threat. All I'm saying is that WK being such a poor FT shooter now doesn't give me great hope for his skill ceiling. Anything can happen though, but he is not starting at a promising baseline.

Kessler has hands that Gobert can only dream about. But I'm not sure how much more he can develop offensively. His jump shot looks decent like it has some potential though. I mean look at Malone's rookie year from the FT and jump shooting in general.

 

[SoUjazzfan]

Ya but gobert seemed to annoy lots of people. Fans, media, players of other teams, other teammates besides donovan. Just didn't seem very likeable to very many people.

I really think the whole covid deal cast a negative shadow (though undeserved, it was happening anyway) over Gobert

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Kessler has hands that Gobert can only dream about. But I'm not sure how much more he can develop offensively. His jump shot looks decent like it has some potential though. I mean look at Malone's rookie year from the FT and jump shooting in general.

Yeah anything is possible.

Gobert is an all time offensive player though. I don't think WK can baby hook his way to being a better offensive player than Gobert. Plus there's the issue that WK probably won't ever develop the ability to get to the ft line that Gobert did. So in my estimation for WK to be a better offensive player than Gobert he will need to be a 75%+ ft shooter and be 60% plus from the floor with a shot diet that exist outside of 5 feet.

The best thing you can say about WK over Gobert offensively is that he is more trustworthy with the ball in tight spaces.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I really think the whole covid deal cast a negative shadow (though undeserved, it was happening anyway) over Gobert

The thing that cast the shadow on Gobert was his success and how people couldn't handle it.

 

[mcbsst]

I just find the "I like Kessler more than Gobert because a bunch of people who didn't know jackshit about basketball hated on Gobert and I'm insecure about my basketball team" lame AF.

I find the “I like Gobert more than Kessler just because” person annoying sometimes

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

I find the “I like Gobert more than Kessler just because” person annoying sometimes

I like Gobert more because he's one of the best players in franchise history and one of the best defensive players of all time.