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Culture of winning or tank?

Win or tank?

  • Total voters
    96
HermanG said:
This is what happens when people think too highly of themselves. They come up with their own definitions of well established concepts.

Culture is a thing, and has been extensively studied by people 10x smarter than you.

Winning skills/attributes on the other hand are a figment of your own imagination. While some skills are more important than others and length is important for sure, but champions have been built in various different ways and there is no one formula.
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For the last 30 years there is one team that has won the NBA championship without an MVP level talent. ONE!

2023: Denver Nuggets - Jokic
2022: Golden State Warriors - Curry (this is 2 years after they tanked for the no. 2 pick BTW, winning culture and all...)
2021: Milwaukee Bucks- Giannis (after having 1 winning season in the 10 prior to drafting Giannis)
2020: Los Angeles Lakers - Lebron (this is after a decade of constant losing and being a horrible team... all they needed was to get the talent)
2019: Toronto Raptors - Kawhi
2018: Golden State Warriors - Curry, Durant
2017: Golden State Warriors - Curry, Durant
2016: Cleveland Cavaliers - LeBron (yeah... that winning culture of Clevelend)
2015: Golden State Warriors - Curry (2 years after they tanked to keep their pick)
2014: San Antonio Spurs - Kawhi, Duncan (tanked for Duncan)
2013: Miami Heat - Lebron, Wade
2012: Miami Heat - Lebron, Wade
2011: Dallas Mavericks - Dirk
2010: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe
2009: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe
2008: Boston Celtics - Garnett (This is the year after they tanked for Durant, but didn't get him)
2007: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan (Tanked for Duncan)
2006: Miami Heat - Wade
2005: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan (Tanked for Duncan)
2004: Detroit Pistons !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS THE ONE!!! exception...
2003: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan, Robinson (Tanked for Duncan)
2002: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe, Shaq
2001: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe, Shaq
2000: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe, Shaq
1999: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan, Robinson (tanked for Duncan)
1998: Chicago Bulls - MJ - pushed off
1997: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1996: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1995: Houston Rockets - Hakeem
1994: Houston Rockets - Hakeem
1993: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1992: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1991: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1990: Detroit Pistons - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the second exception
1989: Detroit Pistons - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Same team - third exception
1988: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic
1987: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic
1986: Boston Celtics - Bird, Walton
1985: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic, McAdoo
1984: Boston Celtics - Bird
1983: Philadelphia 76ers - Moses Malone, Julius Erving
1982: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic
1981: Boston Celtics - Bird,
1980: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Haywood

So Since 1980... The only team that has won an NBA championship without an MVP level talent is Detroit Pistons and they have done it 3 times. 3 out 44 teams. Yes, there are different ways to build a contender, but what is almost universally true is - you need to get a player with the talent, skill and attributes to be the best player in the league. Everything else is pipe dreams and delusions. Unless you are the Detroit Pistons I guess...

If you want to argue that you are better off trying to find that guy by not losing, have at it. We can have that argument too. But lets not lie to ourselves that we are going anywhere without a guy or two(because about a 3d of those teams have had 2 MVP level talents on their roster), who can be THE GUY in any given series...
 
stitches said:
For the last 30 years there is one team that has won the NBA championship without an MVP level talent. ONE!

2023: Denver Nuggets - Jokic
2022: Golden State Warriors - Curry (this is 2 years after they tanked for the no. 2 pick BTW, winning culture and all...)
2021: Milwaukee Bucks- Giannis (after having 1 winning season in the 10 prior to drafting Giannis)
2020: Los Angeles Lakers - Lebron (this is after a decade of constant losing and being a horrible team... all they needed was to get the talent)
2019: Toronto Raptors - Kawhi
2018: Golden State Warriors - Curry, Durant
2017: Golden State Warriors - Curry, Durant
2016: Cleveland Cavaliers - LeBron (yeah... that winning culture of Clevelend)
2015: Golden State Warriors - Curry (2 years after they tanked to keep their pick)
2014: San Antonio Spurs - Kawhi, Duncan (tanked for Duncan)
2013: Miami Heat - Lebron, Wade
2012: Miami Heat - Lebron, Wade
2011: Dallas Mavericks - Dirk
2010: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe
2009: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe
2008: Boston Celtics - Garnett (This is the year after they tanked for Durant, but didn't get him)
2007: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan (Tanked for Duncan)
2006: Miami Heat - Wade
2005: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan (Tanked for Duncan)
2004: Detroit Pistons !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS THE ONE!!! exception...
2003: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan, Robinson (Tanked for Duncan)
2002: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe, Shaq
2001: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe, Shaq
2000: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe, Shaq
1999: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan, Robinson (tanked for Duncan)
1998: Chicago Bulls - MJ - pushed off
1997: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1996: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1995: Houston Rockets - Hakeem
1994: Houston Rockets - Hakeem
1993: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1992: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1991: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1990: Detroit Pistons - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the second exception
1989: Detroit Pistons - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Same team - third exception
1988: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic
1987: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic
1986: Boston Celtics - Bird, Walton
1985: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic, McAdoo
1984: Boston Celtics - Bird
1983: Philadelphia 76ers - Moses Malone, Julius Erving
1982: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic
1981: Boston Celtics - Bird,
1980: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Haywood

So Since 1980... The only team that has won an NBA championship without an MVP level talent is Detroit Pistons and they have done it 3 times. 3 out 44 teams. Yes, there are different ways to build a contender, but what is almost universally true is - you need to get a player with the talent, skill and attributes to be the best player in the league. Everything else is pipe dreams and delusions. Unless you are the Detroit Pistons I guess...

If you want to argue that you are better off trying to find that guy by not losing, have at it. We can have that argument too. But lets not lie to ourselves that we are going anywhere without a guy or two(because about a 3d of those teams have had 2 MVP level talents on their roster), who can be THE GUY in any given series...
Click to expand...
I have reiterated that same history multiple times so trust me, I know it. Would have saved you some time to read my reply properly.

I never argued you dont need a MVP caliber player. However the guys you listed serve as a proof that there is not one type of player/skill/attribute that your top guy must have.

Curry, Duncan, Shaq and MJ have little in common between each other in terms of skillsets. Three of them are great defenders though. Even mentally, the only thing they all share is "the killer instinct" or whatever you wanna call it.
 
stitches said:
For the last 30 years there is one team that has won the NBA championship without an MVP level talent. ONE!
Click to expand...
Actually, you listed 3 times out of 30. And you can add to it 2 more: Garnett did not play on the MVP level for Boston, and neither did Kawhi and Duncan in 2014. So, 5 times out of 30 years: it's rare, but it happens.
 
HermanG said:
I have reiterated that same history multiple times so trust me, I know it. Would have saved you some time to read my reply properly.

I never argued you dont need a MVP caliber player. However the guys you listed serve as a proof that there is not one type of player/skill/attribute that your top guy must have.

Curry, Duncan, Shaq and MJ have little in common between each other in terms of skillsets. Three of them are great defenders though. Even mentally, the only thing they all share is "the killer instinct" or whatever you wanna call it.
Click to expand...
And who said they have to be any particular type of player?
 
stitches said:
For the last 30 years there is one team that has won the NBA championship without an MVP level talent. ONE!

2023: Denver Nuggets - Jokic
2022: Golden State Warriors - Curry (this is 2 years after they tanked for the no. 2 pick BTW, winning culture and all...)
2021: Milwaukee Bucks- Giannis (after having 1 winning season in the 10 prior to drafting Giannis)
2020: Los Angeles Lakers - Lebron (this is after a decade of constant losing and being a horrible team... all they needed was to get the talent)
2019: Toronto Raptors - Kawhi
2018: Golden State Warriors - Curry, Durant
2017: Golden State Warriors - Curry, Durant
2016: Cleveland Cavaliers - LeBron (yeah... that winning culture of Clevelend)
2015: Golden State Warriors - Curry (2 years after they tanked to keep their pick)
2014: San Antonio Spurs - Kawhi, Duncan (tanked for Duncan)
2013: Miami Heat - Lebron, Wade
2012: Miami Heat - Lebron, Wade
2011: Dallas Mavericks - Dirk
2010: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe
2009: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe
2008: Boston Celtics - Garnett (This is the year after they tanked for Durant, but didn't get him)
2007: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan (Tanked for Duncan)
2006: Miami Heat - Wade
2005: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan (Tanked for Duncan)
2004: Detroit Pistons !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS THE ONE!!! exception...
2003: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan, Robinson (Tanked for Duncan)
2002: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe, Shaq
2001: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe, Shaq
2000: Los Angeles Lakers - Kobe, Shaq
1999: San Antonio Spurs - Duncan, Robinson (tanked for Duncan)
1998: Chicago Bulls - MJ - pushed off
1997: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1996: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1995: Houston Rockets - Hakeem
1994: Houston Rockets - Hakeem
1993: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1992: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1991: Chicago Bulls - MJ
1990: Detroit Pistons - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the second exception
1989: Detroit Pistons - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Same team - third exception
1988: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic
1987: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic
1986: Boston Celtics - Bird, Walton
1985: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic, McAdoo
1984: Boston Celtics - Bird
1983: Philadelphia 76ers - Moses Malone, Julius Erving
1982: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Magic
1981: Boston Celtics - Bird,
1980: Los Angeles Lakers - Kareem, Haywood

So Since 1980... The only team that has won an NBA championship without an MVP level talent is Detroit Pistons and they have done it 3 times. 3 out 44 teams. Yes, there are different ways to build a contender, but what is almost universally true is - you need to get a player with the talent, skill and attributes to be the best player in the league. Everything else is pipe dreams and delusions. Unless you are the Detroit Pistons I guess...

If you want to argue that you are better off trying to find that guy by not losing, have at it. We can have that argument too. But lets not lie to ourselves that we are going anywhere without a guy or two(because about a 3d of those teams have had 2 MVP level talents on their roster), who can be THE GUY in any given series...
Click to expand...
Also do not for a second think Spurs didnt have winning culture deeply integrated into their organisation when they tanked for Duncan. One year of bad play due to poor injury luck is easy to brush aside when their core had won 55-62 games in each of the previous 3 seasons.
 
I'm not putting a huge emphasis in this winning and losing culture stuff. In the end it just comes down to talent. Did the wolves have a losing cultures for years or were they bad because they sucked at talent evaluation and wasted high draft picks non stop? They finally hit on Edwards and McDaniels in the same draft and it tranformed their future. The same goes for the kings. Terrible talent evaluation where they constantly missed. Then they finally hit on some key guys like Fox and Haliburton and it opens a path to being competitive.
 
HermanG said:
You said winning skills/attributes... but maybe I took that the wrong way?
Click to expand...
Yeah... I just meant really high level of skill and/or attributes... I meant MVP level talent in general. Regardless of the shape and size it comes in..
 
HermanG said:
I have reiterated that same history multiple times so trust me, I know it. Would have saved you some time to read my reply properly.

I never argued you dont need a MVP caliber player. However the guys you listed serve as a proof that there is not one type of player/skill/attribute that your top guy must have.

Curry, Duncan, Shaq and MJ have little in common between each other in terms of skillsets. Three of them are great defenders though. Even mentally, the only thing they all share is "the killer instinct" or whatever you wanna call it.
Click to expand...
What most of those guys do have in common though, is the team that they won the championship with, drafted them. (I'll exclude Shaq, because he had Kobe, who the Lakers did draft).
 
After what they've done these last two seasons, nothing else than very unlikely superstar trade in the summer, or hard tank makes any sense right now. And as the team is so unfinished, I guess they Have to go that way.
 
stitches said:
For the last 30 years there is one team that has won the NBA championship without an MVP level talent. ONE!
Click to expand...

Ok, let's look at this the other way then. In the past 30 years, the average spot where the NBA MVP was picked has been 9. Last decade, it's trended lower and it's 17. Of course, Jokić repeating skews that, but a number one pick hasn't won the MVP in more than a decade. Nor has anyone picked 2nd.

You wanna expand this a bit? Let's take top 5 MVP vote getters in the past 5 years. The average is 14. Of course, there are a lot of players repeating. It's only been 13 unique players getting top 5 votes the past 5 years. The average is 12 if you just take each of the 11 players once.

Of those 13 players, only 6 were drafted with the team's own pick of the team they were on when they got the votes. The other 7 were either obtained in trades or drafted with a pick obtained in trades. In other words, those picks had nothing to do with the records of those teams the year before. You know the average of the players drafted with their team's own picks and still on the team when they were getting these MVP votes? Twenty! Brunson and Jokić were both second round picks, Giannis went 15th, Booker went 13th, and Curry was 7th. The only one picked in top 5 of those six was Embiid at #3.

I mean, I'd love to tell you that teams get MVP level players by tanking and finishing bottom 5 in the league, but it doesn't look like it.
 
JimLes said:
Ok, let's look at this the other way then. In the past 30 years, the average spot where the NBA MVP was picked has been 9. Last decade, it's trended lower and it's 17. Of course, Jokić repeating skews that, but a number one pick hasn't won the MVP in more than a decade. Nor has anyone picked 2nd.

You wanna expand this a bit? Let's take top 5 MVP vote getters in the past 5 years. The average is 14. Of course, there are a lot of players repeating. It's only been 13 unique players getting top 5 votes the past 5 years. The average is 12 if you just take each of the 11 players once.

Of those 13 players, only 6 were drafted with the team's own pick of the team they were on when they got the votes. The other 7 were either obtained in trades or drafted with a pick obtained in trades. In other words, those picks had nothing to do with the records of those teams the year before. You know the average of the players drafted with their team's own picks and still on the team when they were getting these MVP votes? Twenty! Brunson and Jokić were both second round picks, Giannis went 15th, Booker went 13th, and Curry was 7th. The only one picked in top 5 of those six was Embiid at #3.

I mean, I'd love to tell you that teams get MVP level players by tanking and finishing bottom 5 in the league, but it doesn't look like it.
Click to expand...
Helluva post. Well done. Great info

Sent from my CPH2451 using Tapatalk
 
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