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Does Lauri Get Traded?

Does Lauri Get Dealt Before The Season Starts?


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And I was probably being harder or assuming you were headed some places that I have rehashed. My bad. I think the NBA landscape is shifting a bit so its hard to find exact models. Not that everything is so unique. I just think our situation currently the tank is by far the wisest course of action. If we didn't owe a pick to OKC, if the next two drafts appeared to be "meh", and if the right win now players came available... I might see it different.

And let it be known... I think its absolutely stupid that the system we participate in requires/rewards teams being really bad to have a shot at legendary talents. And that ultimately you need to be bad and get just straight luck. I don't have a much better replacement but this just all seems counterintuitive to sport and competition.

If we land top 5 in next years draft and retain Lauri I do think we have a shot to do something awesome. With Lauri I just keep coming back to - Stock and Malone wanted to be here, Rudy wanted to be here, and guys like Gordo, DWill, Donny, Booze all kind of wanted out or bailed out for one reason or another. I don't want to have that loser mentality of "these guys will leave us" but it also seems weird to be like "trade this AS that wants to be here". I just want us to be straight with him about it being 1-2 year process or longer if we strike out. I also think with the West the way it is and with as many teams as there are that are all-in... we can end up 3rd or 4th in the league if we cut other parts and it can be a pretty quick turnaround.

Also with the cap issues teams are having the next 12-24 months could bring some unforeseen tear downs. We'd be in a position to short cut the process but not short change it if things line up right. If it doesn't we move Lauri later in part to do right by him.
I think the last part is the true "unknown". It feels like this offseason already the stupid money isnt there anymore. Lots of GMs and exces saying that the new CBA is gonna reallly handcuff you if you try to build "superteams".

I sort of like it as it felt for a while like teams are handing max deals like Oprah handing out gifts to her audience. I think its gonna change and there will be different types of team builds some of which may be more about quality across the board while others are focused on maximizing the top 3 or so guys.

One thing will stay constant though. You will always need at least that 1 guy who is REALLY freaking good.
 
I think the problem is the failure to recognize the very large downside to tanking.Tanking and missing on a "superstar" has very real and large consequences. Also it is not at all entertaining and largely removes mine and many others desire to be a fan. If my team is unwatchable for 5 years, I am just going to move on to other stuff.

You are more likely to become Washington than hit on a Wemby.
Part of Washington's problem is they wouldn't tank though. They never wanted to rebuild. While there are examples on all sides I think tanking is just as valid as any strategy and they all lead to failure far more often than success. There are various other outcomes beyond Wemby, Duncan, Lebron that are really important. Cleveland gets Kyrie and Wiggins to trade for Love which helps lure Lebron home, Ant Edwards, Luka, OKC trio of KD, Harden, Russ

The alternatives in our situation aren't nearly as good as losing a lot and getting a high pick next year.
 
Getting a top 5 pick in next years draft whether we keep Lauri or not sets us up really well. Dylan Harper is my 5th pick right now and I he is still a great fit with us.

Pg- Dylan Harper, Collier
Sg- Key, Cody Williams
Sf- Hendricks
Pf- Lauri, Collins
C- Walker, Flip

Sexton is a little bit difficult to figure out as a long term piece. If you want to solidify the tank this year moving Sexton could the piece to move if the value is there.
We would also be looking at 2 other first in probably the 20-30 range from the cavs and wolves.
Hendricks at 3 and Lauri at 4? Is this a projection of development or a positionless lineup based on height alone? As in right now Lauri is much better playing like a wing than Hendricks.

I mean if I project anyone of this current team to 3 over Lauri it would have to be Cody.
 
Now you are trolling. You were the one that mentioned guys like Ja, Zion and Jaylen
Read the thread again. I did not mention those guys, I actually pointed out that most of those guys have done nothing in the league thus far. It was @idiot who listed those players.

And yes, I'd be unhappy if the Jazz had a top 5 pick and got KAT, Beal or Young. Not one of those players is clearly better than Lauri and two are not better at all.
 
Still catching up on all the news, but I get the impression that there were no godfather offers out there and Ainge will not accept less that that. So I guess we're somewhat in the same holding pattern that we've always been in. There is a price for everyone, for Lauri it is high, that offer doesn't exist for him at this moment. Extremely freezing take, I know, but this is evident by Lauri not being traded yet.

I remember having a similar conversation when were talking Don trades. Some argued to death that we should be willing to take a worse deal to tank more immediately. Seems as though these conversations always turns circular because there are too many permutations based on low probability outcomes. You're going to need an incredible string of luck and great decision making no what path you take and the more big picture you take things the more murky things get. You can't actually all the possibilities and permutations, whatever you're biased towards you will see the light and vice versa. There is no model.

What I do think gets discounted in these discussions is that while drafting higher is undeniably better than drafting lower, the goal of a rebuild isn't necessarily to have the best chance of drafting a star. The goal of a rebuild is to have as most talent as possible and what I would not discount is the 100% chance at having Lauri Markannen. So while it's undeniable that Lauri hurts our tank chances, how do you weigh that versus the chances of getting another Lauri in addition to another star. This is the same question to ask for Sexton and Kessler as well. You're always making that calculation on whether or not this player is worth whatever lottery odds they might take away from you. I think it's an interesting discussion on both, but that will need another thread.

The other side of this is there's theoretically always a chance you can trade for a player of Lauri's caliber again. As much as I love Lauri, I really don't think he's the kind of generational talent that you must build around. While you can't ever hope that a Luka/Giannis type will be available in trade and willing to go to Utah, you can with reasonable confidence think that someone of Lauri's caliber could be acquire through trade at some point down the line. This obviously goes for players like Sexton and Kessler as well.

Even though my standards of what a "godfather" offer appear to be different, I don't think it's worth it to trade him for a subpar offer. I learned that he can be traded on deadline day this season, so you can keep your options open. From a personal enjoyment perspective, I think it's incredibly lame that we're entering another season where we're not competing for a top lotto spot or a playoff spot....but at least I can say with this roster there aren't any players where I'm thinking "what's the point of him being here". Lauri, Sexton, and Kessler....you could argue that they are all worth their weight even though they will make you lose lotto balls. The young guys are the young guys. The JC's are their own category where it's a completely different decision and that decision is to dump them or not with their negative value contracts + open up playing time or wait for them to expire + pray they rehab value. What we don't have are a bunch of pointless veterans that have positive value but don't figure to play into a long term future.

If there's a chance for a godfather offer, it's probably not going to happen until deadline when Lauri is on an extended deal. I'm willing to take half a season of worse tanking than a worse offer right now.
I don’t really remember people saying we should take a lesser package for Donovan just to ensure tanking. I think people said if this package was the best offer on the table to take it. Which people are saying now.

At what point is a godfather offer? We passed on all of the Kings picks and swaps. 3 total of each. What pushes it to godfather offer?
 
Another way to ask the question, how much less are you willing to take right now for Lauri so we can tank right now vs deadline and beyond?What would that total offer look like?

It’s way to murky to say tank=good or tank=bad.
 
And lets say we get a Bailey, Flagg, Traore, Edgecombe to pair with Lauri now that we also have the assets to do the win-now trade over the top of that. Since you have a bunch of prospects already in house with the blue chip prospect it makes a lot more sense. It also seems the market for flawed "stars" like Ingram and Young has corrected in a big way. So you might grab someone like that "cheap". It could flip pretty quick for us but I just wouldn't eff around with the 2025 pick.
 
I agree. I just think we have limited strategies available to us in this market... and tanking really doesn't prevent doing the other things.
Well, it prevents us from having a good product to watch for a year+ and you have to completely flip your conventions in order to root against your favorite team. I think even the most logical fan, who understands the value of tanking should at least put a bit more weight into that aspect. Having an absolutely terrible team to root for, sucks. And when they come together as a team and somehow manage to win their 10th game of the season 75 games in, and you actually have to be pissed about it? It's not nothing, is all I'm saying.
 
Another way to ask the question, how much less are you willing to take right now for Lauri so we can tank right now vs deadline and beyond?What would that total offer look like?

It’s way to murky to say tank=good or tank=bad.
I think the options are different as I think we could legitimately keep Lauri long term. So I'd weigh the offers differently. I think if we extend him he likely finishes the season on the roster. At that point the trade might be motivated by his impatience. For me the question is... if they don't bowl us over for Lauri... what will I accept for Sexton and Kessler so I can tank.
 
Another way to ask the question, how much less are you willing to take right now for Lauri so we can tank right now vs deadline and beyond?What would that total offer look like?

It’s way to murky to say tank=good or tank=bad.
How much would you be willing to include in a trade up from say... 8 to 3 to get your guy?

Of course that's all hypothetical... but lets say the FO has some model that tells them, with Lauri we finish with the 8th odds, without him we finish 3d... How much would it take to trade up to 3 from 8? Theoretically you should be willing to get that much less in a trade... that is in the worst case scenario of course.
 
The OKC model. Trade a star (Paul George, Lauri) for picks and young talent. Young talent becomes an MVP caliber player. Picks become studs that fit well. Be contenders and a top team in the NBA for a while.

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Just wanna mention that all of the Spurs, Thunder, and Warriors models have relied on top-10 picks and have each had MULTIPLE tanking ERAS. But, sure, they’re the dummies.

But, yeah, it also takes luck and skill. Of course. That’s the difference between the above and the Kings of old and Pistons today. Oh, and that the Kings and Pistons also don’t tank.

The difference is intention and planning. Ainge/Ryan should Take Note (versus what looks like mostly opportunism).
 
I don’t really remember people saying we should take a lesser package for Donovan just to ensure tanking. I think people said if this package was the best offer on the table to take it. Which people are saying now.

At what point is a godfather offer? We passed on all of the Kings picks and swaps. 3 total of each. What pushes it to godfather offer?

I definitely remember people saying that we should have taken the rumored MIA package just to get into the tank right away. Had incredibly long discussions about it. What you’re saying about taking the best offer on the table is the more or less the same thing. The reason why you take the best offer instead of going into the season to wait for a better offer is to start the tanking right away.

Before I took a short break, it seemed like the godfather package was Wemby lol. But realistically I think the godfather package would be similar ish to the Bridges package.
 
I don’t really remember people saying we should take a lesser package for Donovan just to ensure tanking. I think people said if this package was the best offer on the table to take it. Which people are saying now.

At what point is a godfather offer? We passed on all of the Kings picks and swaps. 3 total of each. What pushes it to godfather offer?
The offer that gives me pause is if GS clears up the Washington pick obligation and offers 3 picks and 4 super swaps with Podz and Moody. Not a JK guy myself but if they offer I'd take him of course. Not sure what they have offered but that's the one I could see getting it done.

I think SA bows out as they have a long runway... Unless Pop is pushing them to compete in his window.
 
Well, I tried to take your lead: you mentioned the last 15 years but your list did not include Harden (drafted 3rd in 2009). I thought about that and realized that you are right and that there is another tier of players, mostly guards - Harden, Lillard, Mitchell, Brunson, Kyrie, Butler - who can be the best player on a perennially good playoff team but they are not good enough to be a true alpha on a championship contender. They are a perfect number two on a championship team though. It is hard to differentiate them from true championship leaders though, since they are tremendous floor-raisers, but again, a guard must be truly remarkable (in the mold of Curry or SGA) to be on par with the two-way larger players like Jokic, AD or Giannis. By the way, following this logic I would exclude Morant from your list: I have a hard time seeing MEM with Morant as their best players in the NBA Finals with a decent chance of winning, he will probably turn out similar to Lillard and Mitchell in the level of impact.

For your second point: it is a bit hard to count championships since many of the guys you listed are still very young and their championships are still ahead of them. For that metric we will need to count the championships of players drafted in 1995-2010, and that list will be very heavy with top 5 picks (Duncan, Durant, LeBron...even Billups was the 3rd pick). I don't think the math will be very different, to be honest.
I didn't include Harden (or Curry, if looking outside the top 5) because I went back to the 2010 draft (thus the last 15 drafts). That was an arbitrary decision to do 15 years and make a nice round number, not an intentional one to exclude Harden. But yeah, things can look different depending on the starting point. Things surely look better for the pro-tank argument if you go back further and include Harden, Durant, Lebron, Duncan, Wade, and so on. I'm not sure whether the fact that the production from top-5 picks over the last 15 years has decreased is due to random variability or to something else (stronger overall talent pool, better player development programs, etc.) But yeah, I would probably have included Lillard, Mitchell, Brunson, Butler in the same category as Zion, Morant, maybe even AD, and Brown. I wouldn't have put Kyrie in there because he's mostly been a disaster as a #1.

But I think it's also true that (Wemby aside, likely) it's still pretty much of an open question as to who else in this list of top 5 draft picks over the last 15 years will end up with a championship as a #1. Edwards and Doncic have a decent chance, but I'm not sure I'd go above 50% for either of them. Embiid is probably lower than that.

In any event, my point was never that the top-5 isn't the best place to find top talent. It was more that the odds there are usually lower than we recognize. For the 9 top-five talents that I identified over the past 15 years as transformative talents, I count approximately 22 players who were expected to be (by draft hype) to be transformative talents that ended up as something less than that (such as John Wall, Wiggins, Fultz, Ayton, Lamelo, Cade, Scoot, Derrick Williams, and so on). That works out to be approximately 30% of the players who were expected to be transformative talents ended up being so. If we apply this to the 2025 draft, our best expectation (since everybody seems convinced there are 5 or 6 transformative talents) is probably that there will be 2.
 
I definitely remember people saying that we should have taken the rumored MIA package just to get into the tank right away. Had incredibly long discussions about it. What you’re saying about taking the best offer on the table is the more or less the same thing. The reason why you take the best offer instead of going into the season to wait for a better offer is to start the tanking right away.

Before I took a short break, it seemed like the godfather package was Wemby lol. But realistically I think the godfather package would be similar ish to the Bridges package.
I'll raise my hand here. I did think the Miami offer was worth considering for sure. Part of it was pushing back on the notion that they had nothing to offer. I just didn't think the offer was "trash".
 
I'll raise my hand here. I did think the Miami offer was worth considering for sure. Part of it was pushing back on the notion that they had nothing to offer. I just didn't think the offer was "trash".
You werent the only one. There have been so many guys lamenting the "poor tanking" of 2022-23 and basically all of them are in the same boat. Those guys cant go back to rewrite history and tinker the "perfect tanking roster" in hindsight that also keeps Lauri, Sexton, Kessler and everyone who is of some value now.

We missed out on Wemby which sucks. But if we would instead do that deep tank now by selling Lauri and Sexton we could have like 5-6 extra FRPs compared to doing the "sell low to tank" trades in the 2022 offseason. And if we dont sell them, then we are already in position to build up really fast if we land our version of Jason Tatum or whoever.
 
How much would you be willing to include in a trade up from say... 8 to 3 to get your guy?

Of course that's all hypothetical... but lets say the FO has some model that tells them, with Lauri we finish with the 8th odds, without him we finish 3d... How much would it take to trade up to 3 from 8? Theoretically you should be willing to get that much less in a trade... that is in the worst case scenario of course.

This is the right way to think about things. I think the "is tanking good/bad" is kind of a useless topic to talk about and especially in a bad sense, it always ends up at the same place. What you really have to assess is how much better do you think Lauri makes us, how much is that worth.

The only thing I would add is that "lotto position" is a lot different than draft position.
 
Well, it prevents us from having a good product to watch for a year+ and you have to completely flip your conventions in order to root against your favorite team. I think even the most logical fan, who understands the value of tanking should at least put a bit more weight into that aspect. Having an absolutely terrible team to root for, sucks.
I beg to differ. Watching the same tired Mitchell-Gobert-Bogey team was absolutely terrible. Because the result was totally predictable even before the season started: a decent regular season where every player is playing the same exact role as the last year and the year before, followed by the inevitable limp first-round exit. And watching a squad of young prospects growing together is exciting because the result is unknown. Who will step up, who will fail, who will become a leader?
 
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