Both of those players are net negative on plus/minus:
Clarkson -5.4 per 100
Collins -7.7 per 100
vs Lauri at +.5 and Sexton at -3.3.
playing Clarkson/Collins /contributes/ to losing games, more so than THT did last season (-5.1).
ESPN Bet Sets Jazz O/U at 28.5
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Clarkson -5.4 per 100
Collins -7.7 per 100
vs Lauri at +.5 and Sexton at -3.3.
playing Clarkson/Collins /contributes/ to losing games, more so than THT did last season (-5.1).
Sure, they aren't amazing players, but both were used in suboptimal positions for long stretches. Also, we aren't talking about being a playoff team. We are talking about winning a few more games than they would without them. The key games when you are on the road playing the Bulls/Raptors/Pistons/Wizards/etc.
Clarkson is going to come off the bench, at less minutes, and probably be a better player.
Collins played next to Kessler ot start the season and it was awful for everyone. He's played well in the 2nd half. He's a solid player and has been a better defender than he was in Utah. I expect him to play better as well.
I think with fish it's the difference between believing that a lot of people still think a Lauri trade is likely vs believing that everybody has moved on and pretty much universally believes a trade isn't happening. I don't agree that everybody has moved on, but if you think that's the case, then his logic is fine.
Sip, though... yeah. Sip is weirdly dug in on arguing that people setting the lines completely ignore the likelihood of trades, which is just flat-out wrong.
Idk why we are overly focused on just Lauri. It's everything. It's Sexton. It's the Walker rumors. It's everything. That's the point. People think Utah will makes moves to get actively worse. But people also know Danny doesn't sell low. Also Utah has played well prior to the ASB twice in a row when people assumed all out tanks. Also the schedule hasn't even come out yet. We don't know if we are paying the great West teams 3 times or 4 times. We don't know how many B2Bs we have. Etc.
Maybe, but based on their age/experience, they are just as likely to be worse, not better.
Jordan may have peaked- but his main issues have always been mental, so if he can reign himself in and play smart, he could be very good. Of course if so, he gets traded quickly.
Collins though, just seems to have a low motor. He is good in small stretches when he gets motivated by something happening on court, but most of the time he just seems to be getting by. He would probably need a personality transplant to play at a substantially better level.
That's not typically how it works. It's not like he has two good weeks and suddenly teams want him. It's usually the deadline approaches and teams weigh their options and if he has played well up to the point vs the other available options, they trade for him.
Collins is 26. It was his first year on a team. That's definitely a situation where someone can improve. Mike Conley improved in his 2nd year as an old *** dude.
I just mean that if Clarkson is substantially hurting the tank he'll be gone at the first opportunity.
Please read what I said, Jesus Christ.
This is the key. "Tanking" in one way or another is baked into the number because that is what talking heads expect us to do and what everyone thinks we should do.
That is not a reflection of roster strength. Its a combination of roster strength and expected strategy.
However if we go into the season looking to let the guys compete then who are the good vets we trade out this time to shoot the tires? The end of season tank is gonna be harder to execute the younger we get.
We don’t have the good vets to trade this time, which is why I expect to be worse this year than previous years. Whenever someone says something along the lines of “Clarkson and Collins are going to ruin the tank”, I see that as evidence as to why we’re going to be worse than previous years. Vets do indeed win you games but we have significantly less of those guys.
Are we bad enough to get the number one lotto position? Probably not, and we could never expect that without trading Lauri. But are we bad enough to be two games worse than last year? I certainly think so.
Also no one is accounting for if Lauri takes another step
