when they define tanking to exclude sitting David Robinson to get tim Duncan just to make their argument better i stop caring what else is read. David Robinson could have played at least a portion of the season, but management felt it was better that he sit the entire season (umm... cough tanking). Management making decision to prioritize a higher pick next year is my definition of tanking. Players dont tank. players want to win. Management tanks.
2024-2025 Tank Race
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Handlogten's Heros
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That was how I knew it wasn't worth a conversation.
Handlogten's Heros
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I agree and its kind of right... sorta. The other ways are to draft an MVP where Giannis and Jokic were drafted... which we are also able to do as we have additional picks.
I just don't know if you can say being a perennial playoff team for a decade or making the finals or conference finals is an unsuccessful rebuild/tank or whatevs. I think however you do it you build a top 5 team and hope for some luck. We did that but in the process forgot to fill the pipeline or failed to do it... and cashed in some of the assets needed in the future... while also refusing to move around the deck chairs. Wouldn't swap out any good pieces to see if the mix could be improved. Quin was too rigid and I think was partly the driver of that and DL was too passive. It put us in a spot where it was going to be mortgage the future and try with a couple guys that don't like each other... I would have pressed the rebuild button and we got a good return for doing it maybe a little prematurely.
Darkwing Duck
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7'+ with foot injuries aren't a rush back...
I should probably amend my original statement a bit. It's not that I don't think that tanking can be at least part of a way toward a championship. It's more the overconfidence in the likelihood of reaching a championship because of tanking that I find frustrating.
I happen to agree with you in theory. It's just that many of the pro-tankers apply a championship-or-failure standard to non-tanking "strategies," in trying to argue for the need to tank.
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I agree and hardcore tankers also will be like... "tank this year and get Cooper... then we tank next year and get AJ... then its championships!!! **** so easy". When its more likely you tank and end up with like VJ Edgecomb and Nate Ament and one of those guys may not be good. Just like so much of life... the answers are kinda in the middle and grayish.
My issues are generally with the folks that are on the far end of the spectrum "tanking has never worked" and "tanking is foolproof". For me I just want GM consistency in what direction you are heading and with the approach. Where we muffed up a bit is not moving hard enough in the post Don/Rudy trades. What concerns me is potentially oscillating back and forth and just toiling away in the middle/lower end of the NBA world.
Tbh, I think this kind of demonstrates my frustration with much of the tanking crowd. You listed all the ways the Jazz could have improved, but they did not even try. I remember those discussions, and so many were adamant against doing anything besides tanking. Those who were the most against doing anything that could improve the roster were the ones who wanted to tank the most. People can only see tanking as a path to get better. I find the tanking discussion extremely annoying because it's often a closed door. It's easy to say, "we'll rebuild and get draft picks and draft great players" without acknowledging the extreme difficulty/luck required in that happening. OTOH, we know the difficulty of building from the margins. Yeah it's hard to hit a home run on a late draft pick, trade, or FA move with more limited options....that doesn't necessarily mean that it's the worse option.
What it really boils down to is this idea that tanking is the only way and that it's necessary. Also, I cannot stand is when pro-tank people where it as a badge of honor that says they are the one's willing to sacrifice and do what's necessary. This adds to this false dichotomy that tanking is the only way. But those same fans who are willing to "sacrifice" the current state likely enjoy the comfort of having no expectations to win and are also unwilling to "sacrifice" any threat of the future to win now. I can't blame anyone for the way they feel about things, if it feels better to suck now with a promise of hope later instead of trying to win more now with a promise of sucking later....so be it. But don't act like it's the only path and any considerations of other routes is because that person just isn't willing to deal with the losing.
And I'm sure there is some annoying stuff coming the other way as well....but just for me personally, I find it always to be frustrating/circular conversation and it's not because people argue that tanking can't work or hasn't ever worked. It's because people argue that only tanking can work.
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Tremendous Upside
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I'll never understand this line of thought. What were they supposed to do?
The Jazz currently do not have a #1 option on offense. To be honest, they don't really have a #2 option either. They're hoping to acquire those guys at or near the top of the next two drafts, since these are relatively strong draft classes. (Hence, they are "tanking" to acquire those picks.) Guys like Flagg, Harper, Kasparas, Tre Johnson, maybe Jeremiah Fears, AJ Dybantsa, Cam Boozer, Darryn Peterson, etc. need to come in and play those main roles. Another possibility is to draft the #1 guy and try to swing a trade for the #2 guy, but that also takes some luck and happenstance, while Utah has not been a top-tier trade destination for star players.
If the Jazz (as currently constituted) want to make deep playoff runs, then Lauri essentially becomes the Jazz's #3 option, Walker becomes the 4th option, and they can then play Collins, Keyonte or possibly Brice as their 5th starter, with the other two of those three players coming off the bench. The Jazz have been running their offense through Sexton and Clarkson as a stopgap in the meantime.
If the Jazz (as currently constituted) want to make deep playoff runs, then Lauri essentially becomes the Jazz's #3 option, Walker becomes the 4th option, and they can then play Collins, Keyonte or possibly Brice as their 5th starter, with the other two of those three players coming off the bench. The Jazz have been running their offense through Sexton and Clarkson as a stopgap in the meantime.
Lauri is absolutely a #2 option...