Court: California gay marriage ban is unconstitutional

[AtheistPreacher]

So, what do I learn from my encounters with so many gay people?
1. They are miserable. All of them.
2. They have all seriously considered suicide.
3. They speak openly at times how they want the church to change and accept gays and let them marry in the temple.
4. They speak out harshly against the leaders of the church. They are careful to keep this to a rare occurrence, knowing that I won't stand for it, but in moments of weakness, they do
5. They want the whole country to be forced to accept gays. They want laws enacted to forced this. Oh, they will go on about how all they want is acceptance, but it always comes back to LAWS.
6. They are all for the gay lifestyle to be taught in schools.
7. Why do they want gay marriage? None of them actually want to get married. They want a free lifestyle, but they all stated to me that if gay marriage is enforced by law, then people will eventually accept their lifestyle, and #3 will be closer to being a reality.
One of them even stated very clearly that he hoped all mormon temples would eventually be closed down.

And by my own experience living in California, and knowing many many gay people:

1: Wrong. Most of the gay people I know are quite happy.
2: Wrong. See above.
3: Nothing wrong with asking. Martin Luther tried to change his church. Eventually he split off entirely, but he began with a legitimate grievance and a legitimate reason for change. Same thing here. If your church continues not to change, then eventually they will get tired of asking and leave (either that, or your church will change and you will leave). Either way, problem solved.
4: Again, nothing wrong with speaking what you believe. See above.
5: What is wrong with people wanting to be able to live their lives unharassed? You talk as though non-discrimination will have a major effect on your life. It won't. It's all too easy to ignore and not associate with people you don't like. I do it all the time!
6: Now, this always confuses me. What is the "gay lifestyle"? As far as I can tell, it isn't any different than the "straight lifestyle." But perhaps you could describe to me what you feel the "gay lifestyle" consists of.
7: Um, there are plenty of gays who want to be in monogamous relationships. In fact, a lot of the gays I know are in monogamous, committed relationships. When the "straight" divorce rate is over 50%, I find this an odd criticism. Matthew 7:5, dude.

But again, I keep hearing you railing against the "gay lifestyle." I would love to know what you think this is. As far as I have seen, there is no fundamental difference between how gays and straights live.

 

[AtheistPreacher]

What's wrong dude. Can't actually answer anything that I said?

My point just keeps being proven.

Now that's funny. You accusing people of not answering your "arguments" (I just have), and yet you still refuse to answer mine.

My point just keeps being proven.

 

[Stoked]

And by my own experience living in California, and knowing many many gay people:

1: Wrong
2: Wrong
3: Nothing wrong with asking.
4: Again, nothing wrong with speaking what you believe.
5: What is wrong with people wanting to be able to live their lives unharassed?
6: Now, this always confuses me. What is the "gay lifestyle"? As far as I can tell, it isn't any different than the "straight lifestyle." But perhaps you could describe to me what you feel the "gay lifestyle" consists of.7: Um, there are plenty of gays who want to be in monogamous relationships. In fact, a lot of the gays I know are in monogamous, committed relationships. When the "straight" divorce rate is over 50%, I find this an odd criticism.

But again, I keep hearing you railing against the "gay lifestyle." I would love to know what you think this is. As far as I have seen, there is no fundamental difference between how gays and straights live.

What is perceived is that they are a wild, partying, anything goes group. I am not saying that is what they are but what is perceived. Personally the ones I know fit this category but who cares? They are not hurting me. They have steady jobs and pay their way so no harm no foul. I am sure there are many homosexual people that are not party animals and lead quiet family oriented lives. I just dont know them. Shows you what circles I walk in.

 

[AtheistPreacher]

What is perceived is that they are a wild, partying, anything goes group. I am not saying that is what they are but what is perceived. Personally the ones I know fit this category but who cares? They are not hurting me. They have steady jobs and pay their way so no harm no foul. I am sure there are many homosexual people that are not party animals and lead quiet family oriented lives. I just dont know them. Shows you what circles I walk in.

I know one gay guy who's a 25-year-old virgin. Of course, people who assume gay people are having sex all the time are shocked by this. But he's old-fashioned, and wants to wait for a life-partner.

He told me he gets some odd questions because of this, as well. Apparently one his close friends, who up until then he had assumed understood what being gay meant, asked him how he could be sure he was gay if he hadn't had sex with anybody yet. Umm, gee, I don't know, how do straight people know they're straight before they have sex? Just goes to show that people don't actually think sometimes.

 

[Bronco70]

craig2112

In an attempt to genuinely understand your POV, I have a question. I need to make some logical extensions here, so bear with me.

Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?

If all gays are miserable, it would seem to me that it couldn't be a choice. Why choose to be miserable? But if it isn't a choice, what is it? And can being gay be considered evil if it's not a choice? To me this is a natural contradiction.

 

[TroutBum]

Hypocrite.

Um, details? I assume you're taking it out of context and referring to the fact that I'm a Mo and I am involved in city politics, but there's this itching feeling that that isn't why you posted that. So, details please.

 

[Stoked]

I know one gay guy who's a 25-year-old virgin. Of course, people who assume gay people are having sex all the time are shocked by this. But he's old-fashioned, and wants to wait for a life-partner.

He told me he gets some odd questions because of this, as well. Apparently one his close friends, who up until then he had assumed understood what being gay meant, asked him how he could be sure he was gay if he hadn't had sex with anybody yet. Umm, gee, I don't know, how do straight people know they're straight before they have sex? Just goes to show that people don't actually think sometimes.

Oh I agree that the perception is not the reality of what the "gay life style" is. That is why I specifically mentioned the perception. It is not so much that they do not think as they do not understand or are misinformed.

 

[Stoked]

craig2112

In an attempt to genuinely understand your POV, I have a question. I need to make some logical extensions here, so bear with me.

Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?
If all gays are miserable, it would seem to me that it couldn't be a choice. Why choose to be miserable? But if it isn't a choice, what is it? And can being gay be considered evil if it's not a choice? To me this is a natural contradiction.

Honsetly? I think it can be both. The vast amjority are just who they are. But I think there is a small percentage that choose that lifestly and orientation. And you know what? Good for them if it makes them happy.

 

[craig2112]

craig2112

In an attempt to genuinely understand your POV, I have a question. I need to make some logical extensions here, so bear with me.

Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?

If all gays are miserable, it would seem to me that it couldn't be a choice. Why choose to be miserable? But if it isn't a choice, what is it? And can being gay be considered evil if it's not a choice? To me this is a natural contradiction.

Do I believe homosexuality is a choice. I cannot read minds. I can only go on what I have experienced, and compare my religious convictions (of which many here will only attempt to scoff at)
I do believe it is a choice. If God is against it, then I don't think God makes a person a certain way, and then commands that person to not do it. God wasn't terribly forgiving with Sodom and Gomorrah (here comes the religion hate)
But it is also a question with many facets.

Why choose to be miserable? A lot of people are miserable. Not because they chose to be miserable, but because they made bad choices in life and now suffer the consequences.

 

[PearlWatson]

Call it what ever you want to. They should not be denied things that society gives a heterosexual person.

Why this "thing", if the point of marriage is "to harness men's predatory biological impulses into a paired heterosexual relationship directed toward raising children?"

 

[craig2112]

Um, details? I assume you're taking it out of context and referring to the fact that I'm a Mo and I am involved in city politics, but there's this itching feeling that that isn't why you posted that. So, details please.

So why should Mormons stay out of politics.
Seems to me that Democrats love to go and campaign in churches all over the place. Is anyone telling those churches to stay out of politics?
How about all the unions? They are political as can be, and tend to vote straight democrat. Anyone telling them to stay out of politics?

So what is it about Mormons that bars them from politics? Because they don't follow the so-called mainstream?

 

[kwb]

Do I believe homosexuality is a choice. I cannot read minds. I can only go on what I have experienced, and compare my religious convictions (of which many here will only attempt to scoff at)
I do believe it is a choice. If God is against it, then I don't think God makes a person a certain way, and then commands that person to not do it. God wasn't terribly forgiving with Sodom and Gomorrah (here comes the religion hate)
But it is also a question with many facets.

Why choose to be miserable? A lot of people are miserable. Not because they chose to be miserable, but because they made bad choices in life and now suffer the consequences.

Being gay is just a bad choice? Got it.

 

[GVC]

Do I believe homosexuality is a choice. I cannot read minds. I can only go on what I have experienced, and compare my religious convictions (of which many here will only attempt to scoff at)
I do believe it is a choice. If God is against it, then I don't think God makes a person a certain way, and then commands that person to not do it. God wasn't terribly forgiving with Sodom and Gomorrah (here comes the religion hate)
But it is also a question with many facets.

Why choose to be miserable? A lot of people are miserable. Not because they chose to be miserable, but because they made bad choices in life and now suffer the consequences.

While I think your reasons are stupid, I can at least respect that you're willing to state them. I am annoyed to no end when those who have opinions formed (it seems) entirely by their religious beliefs are afraid to state as much. If you're willing to take pot shots at those in the minority for their stated beliefs, you ought to be willing to expose yourself to some ridicule, especially if you happen to be part of the majority.

Your post, as much as I disagree with its content, was strangely refreshing.

 

[Stoked]

Why this "thing", if the point of marriage is "to harness men's predatory biological impulses into a paired heterosexual relationship directed toward raising children?"

Why not this thing? If I am allowed to marry then they should be allowed to as well.

Also that is anew definition of marriage for me lol. I know couples that are married and have no interest in ever having kids. Such as my coworker. Almost 60 happily married and has never had a kid and never wants one.

 

[Stoked]

So why should Mormons stay out of politics.
Seems to me that Democrats love to go and campaign in churches all over the place. Is anyone telling those churches to stay out of politics?
How about all the unions? They are political as can be, and tend to vote straight democrat. Anyone telling them to stay out of politics?

So what is it about Mormons that bars them from politics? Because they don't follow the so-called mainstream?

Individual Mormons? Nothing. They should be involved as everyone should be. The "Mormon Church" on the other hand has this whole "tax exempt" status thing to worry about.

 

[PearlWatson]

Why choose to be miserable? A lot of people are miserable. Not because they chose to be miserable, but because they made bad choices in life and now suffer the consequences.

...or suffer the consequences of horrible things happening to them, and some people do choose to wallow in misery.

 

[PearlWatson]

Why not this thing? If I am allowed to marry then they should be allowed to as well.

Also that is anew definition of marriage for me lol. I know couples that are married and have no interest in ever having kids. Such as my coworker. Almost 60 happily married and has never had a kid and never wants one.

"Allowed?"
So what if heterosexual married couples choose not to have children or can't have children? That doesn't alter the point of marriage.

 

[Stoked]

"Allowed?"
So what if heterosexual married couples choose not to have children or can't have children? That doesn't alter the point of marriage.

Allowed works just fine. Gays are not allowed to get married.

Also you were the one that brought having children into the purpose of marriage, not me. I just discarded the idea.

 

[PearlWatson]

Allowed works just fine. Gays are not allowed to get married.

Also you were the one that brought having children into the purpose of marriage, not me. I just discarded the idea.

Giving children a stable environment to be raised in is the point of marriage whether you recognize that or not.

 

[craig2112]

While I think your reasons are stupid, I can at least respect that you're willing to state them. I am annoyed to no end when those who have opinions formed (it seems) entirely by their religious beliefs are afraid to state as much. If you're willing to take pot shots at those in the minority for their stated beliefs, you ought to be willing to expose yourself to some ridicule, especially if you happen to be part of the majority.

Your post, as much as I disagree with its content, was strangely refreshing.

I am not afraid of stating my beliefs at all. I think I have proven that pretty well. I think I exposed myself to ridicule the moment I entered this thread.
But I have been involved in these kinds of discussions before. I can tell the difference between people who want a civil dicussion, and those who want to do something other than be civil.