The Player Development Thread

[HermanG]

Given that tanking and discussions of it absolutely dominate this board and have for some time now, it seems a bit disingenuous to accuse some individual of being obsessed with it. This board is obsessed with it. However, given the context, i.e., tanking is the Jazz's current reality, that's understandable. I mean, in every discussion about the Jazz these days, tanking hovers above it like some dark, sinister force controlling and dominating our senses. It's inescapable.

It's kind of like someone accusing someone else of being obsessed with Trump, when our politics, culture, society, and discourse are obsessed with him. Our whole current political/social ecosystem is Trump-saturated, just as this board's current ecosystem is tanking-saturated.

Every debate requires opposition. Right now opposition is mostly represented by few individuals, but there are others lurking who feel the same way.

 

[KqWIN]

At the risk of repeating myself: I don't think Hardy treats real NBA games as teaching sessions. He gives the most responsibility to the players who give him the best chance to win.

He's obviously not "holding Ace back" – nobody's stopping Bailey from attacking the rim if he thinks he has an angle – but Hardy's also not gonna force feed a rookie touches and shots in a way that would be detrimental to the team as a whole in that game.

Hardy has shown that he accepts the tank as an overall strategy, but he'll always coach to win. Anyone who expects him to bench Lauri so that Ace can experiment with things he can't do is gonna be waiting for a long time.

I don’t disagree with much of what you said here other than the last sentence. That’s already started and there’s a history of doing exactly that.

Now as far as the other stuff, here’s where I’m in agreement: Playing to win is not in perfect alignment with playing to develop. You have made the argument for me. So even if there was no ranking incentive, the minutes and roles would look different in either situation. The difference is in what we prioritize.

 

[KqWIN]

No ones parking him in corner. He runs curls, cuts, pick and pops and other perimeter based actions. He gets 30-40 touches and the most important thing I wanna see is that he makes as many correct decissions as possible.

Offseason is another story. I would prioritize strength training over others but dribble drills should be part of the diet.

I am in total agreement that I want to see him make as many correct decisions as possible. What's really important is the amount of total decisions and situations he gets to make. I'll repeat myself again and say that it's less important how he gets to those opportunities and more important that he simply gets more. You had mentioned earlier that getting him more involved as "bench-Lauri" and that's a great idea. Those opportunities are naturally going to be limited when he is playing with Lauri, but playing with Lauri is also going to open up different opportunities. One thing I've said is that I would love to see Ace to do some of the hub stuff. He's a much better passer than I expected and Lauri is the best target in the league.

Right now Ace Bailey is 8th percentile in on ball percentage. I don't think he needs to be flooded with on ball responsibility, but I think he can handle a little more and I'm not going to restrict him on the basis of how good he is at in the current moment. Like it doesn't really matter to me that he fell flat on his face in certain situations against MIN. What I like is that he got a lot of reps in general.

And just to address an earlier comment, I do not think in game reps are the magic pill to anything. I've actually stated that I don't think it matters too much one way or another. Most skill development is going to come in the summer anyways. But let's just say that it affects development 1% . I still want that 1% to be as optimized as possible. To me that looks like doing what he's already doing, but adding a little bit more. "Why not both" does not mean one or the other.

At the very least, I don't see a benefit to the restriction of his game....and this is coming from someone who was worried about that when he first got here. I think he's demonstrated the strength of his character and he's not going to go Kuminga on us.

 

[HermanG]

I am in total agreement that I want to see him make as many correct decisions as possible. What's really important is the amount of total decisions and situations he gets to make. I'll repeat myself again and say that it's less important how he gets to those opportunities and more important that he simply gets more. You had mentioned earlier that getting him more involved as "bench-Lauri" and that's a great idea. Those opportunities are naturally going to be limited when he is playing with Lauri, but playing with Lauri is also going to open up different opportunities. One thing I've said is that I would love to see Ace to do some of the hub stuff. He's a much better passer than I expected and Lauri is the best target in the league.

Right now Ace Bailey is 8th percentile in on ball percentage. I don't think he needs to be flooded with on ball responsibility, but I think he can handle a little more and I'm not going to restrict him on the basis of how good he is at in the current moment. Like it doesn't really matter to me that he fell flat on his face in certain situations against MIN. What I like is that he got a lot of reps in general.

And just to address an earlier comment, I do not think in game reps are the magic pill to anything. I've actually stated that I don't think it matters too much one way or another. Most skill development is going to come in the summer anyways. But let's just say that it affects development 1% . I still want that 1% to be as optimized as possible. To me that looks like doing what he's already doing, but adding a little bit more. "Why not both" does not mean one or the other.

At the very least, I don't see a benefit to the restriction of his game....and this is coming from someone who was worried about that when he first got here. I think he's demonstrated the strength of his character and he's not going to go Kuminga on us.

I dont think we are far apart. You just sounded like you wanna throw him to the deep end, and I just oppose that because I think we already know he cant swim.

 

[Schrödinger's Gerbil]

Every debate requires opposition. Right now opposition is mostly represented by few individuals, but there are others lurking who feel the same way.

Right, well, when I joined this board (I had been reading but not posting for years), I did so primarily because I was tired of the tanking advocates dominating the discourse and browbeating the tanking skeptics. In hindsight, I probably came in too hot, but, oh well. My sense is that the board is now more accommodating to tanking skepticism, and there's more of it in evidence here.

Although I would guess that there are still many casual readers who are tanking skeptics, they still feel intimidated about expressing their views. I would invite them to chime in. With Tremendous Upside serving as the avatar whipping boy for us tanking skeptics, it's probably reasonably safe for them to dip their toes in the water; Tremendous Upside has offered himself to suffer for your sins.

A person coming onto this board and reading it might conclude that Jazz fandom on the whole is solidly in on the tank. I think this board, which is populated by those tending toward greater "fanaticism," is probably a small and unrepresentative slice of the Jazz fandom writ large. I would guess that a representative survey of Jazz fans, including the "casuals," would find much less support for tanking, much less obsession with winning a ring, and more interest in providing quality day-to-day entertainment. But, as they say, this is an empirical question.

For whatever that is worth.

 

[KqWIN]

I dont think we are far apart. You just sounded like you wanna throw him to the deep end, and I just oppose that because I think we already know he cant swim.

My exact proposal was to "sprinkle in some other stuff" and I don't think his current level is so bad that we cannot do that.

 

[fishonjazz]

Given that tanking and discussions of it absolutely dominate this board and have for some time now, it seems a bit disingenuous to accuse some individual of being obsessed with it. This board is obsessed with it. However, given the context, i.e., tanking is the Jazz's current reality, that's understandable. I mean, in every discussion about the Jazz these days, tanking hovers above it like some dark, sinister force controlling and dominating our senses. It's inescapable.

It's kind of like someone accusing someone else of being obsessed with Trump, when our politics, culture, society, and discourse are obsessed with him. Our whole current political/social ecosystem is Trump-saturated, just as this board's current ecosystem is tanking-saturated.

I always laugh when someone accuses someone else of having TDS.
Pretty much the whole world has TDS and that is one of the major reasons he should not have been elected and people shouldn't have voted for him. Its not healthy for so many people to be obsessed with one person. I prefer a boring president that I never feel the need to talk about and rarely ever see.

 

[Schrödinger's Gerbil]

I always laugh when someone accuses someone else of having TDS.
Pretty much the whole world has TDS and that is one of the major reasons he should not have been elected and people shouldn't have voted for him. Its not healthy for so many people to be obsessed with one person. I prefer a boring president that I never feel the need to talk about and rarely ever see.

It's always good for a chortle when somebody wearing a MAGA hat, sporting MAGA gear, following Trump on his stump circuit, hanging on every word he says, watching Fox News 24-7, alienating friends & family for being an unhinged dick, and worshiping the ground that malignant piece of human excrement despoils accuses someone of Trump Derangement Syndrome. Yes, I'm talking about this guy: