WI Gubernatorial Recall

[JimLes]

My point is that teachers need a union because if I had to negotiate my contract individually, I would get eaten alive. You can't on one hand say that teachers are different from stock brokers, then turn around and say they should be treated like every private sector employee.

We're not private sector. We operate under completely different circumstances. How many of you have ever gotten a pay cut because your management was trying to score cheap populist points before an election? How many of you have ended up in the papers because of allegations of misconduct at work? How many of you have your performance standards set not by the industry or the market, but by politicians?

 

[JimLes]

Right now only well-to-do parents can send their kids to private school. Vouchers would at least give less wealthy parents the opportunity to send their child to a private school. It gives parents' choices. It's my tax money paid to the govt for my child's education. Why do I have to spend it based on your dictates?

If it was up to me, private schools would be illegal, along with home schooling. If you want private schools, we should just have a completely private school system and then you could all live with it.

 

[Scat]

How many of you have ever gotten a pay cut because your management was trying to score cheap populist points before an election?

Have you ever taken a pay cut because the board of directors is trying to impress the stock holders before a shareholders meeting? I have. Same crap. Cry me a river.

 

[Stoked]

Because, of course, education would work much better if people with money could send all their kids to one school, and all the poor, troubled kids would be at another. That's equality, right there.



Teachers are actually quite easy to fire. The standard of personal conduct we are held to is pretty strict, even for professionals. When was the last time you read about a stock broker being fired because he was in a porno movie?



Because you want to be a teacher, and as such you ought to probably fulfill whatever conditions the teachers' organization sets. It's no different than the Bar, the Medical Association, etc.

You did not ask for what is "fair" for everyone. You asked what hurts me and I told you. Taking away my chance to send my child to a better school hurts me and my child. The unfairness you are railing against already exists. Denying school vouchers just guarantees that it continues for everyone and that no one has a chance of getting more.

I firmly reject that notion that if I have a chance to better my childs future I should not take it because littel SUzies parents down the block did not get that chance. Even reverse that. If little Suzies parents came to me saying they were not taking the opportunity to better their childs future by sending her to a better school, because I didn't get the chance to do that for my daughters, I'd call them idiots to their faces.

 

[JimLes]

I guess that's what makes you Americans different from the rest of the world. I am quite okay with forcing a few to suffer for the good of the many.

 

[Stoked]

My point is that teachers need a union because if I had to negotiate my contract individually, I would get eaten alive. You can't on one hand say that teachers are different from stock brokers, then turn around and say they should be treated like every private sector employee.

We're not private sector. We operate under completely different circumstances. How many of you have ever gotten a pay cut because your management was trying to score cheap populist points before an election? How many of you have ended up in the papers because of allegations of misconduct at work? How many of you have your performance standards set not by the industry or the market, but by politicians?

Which is why I do not consider myself against unions necesarily. They do have their palce and they can do alot of good. They are turning/have turned into something else entirely though.

As for you wanting to ban private shcools. Well that is a perfect example of why people are against unions.

 

[JimLes]

Have you ever taken a pay cut because the board of directors is trying to impress the stock holders before a shareholders meeting? I have. Same crap. Cry me a river.

Well, get a union, muffin. That's why they exist. To protect me from crap.

 

[green]

My point is that teachers need a union because if I had to negotiate my contract individually, I would get eaten alive. You can't on one hand say that teachers are different from stock brokers, then turn around and say they should be treated like every private sector employee.

We're not private sector. We operate under completely different circumstances. How many of you have ever gotten a pay cut because your management was trying to score cheap populist points before an election? How many of you have ended up in the papers because of allegations of misconduct at work? How many of you have your performance standards set not by the industry or the market, but by politicians?

ALL THE TIME. Did you miss the whole recession that has been going on? Oh, that's right you didn't because you belong to an union. People all across America had to take pay cuts or be fired. You guys live in a fantasy world.

Performance standards set by politicians? Give me a break. My whole career is defined by the standards set by politicians. Everybody's is. From car makers (CAFE standards) to doctors (OSHA, HIPPA), to food manufacturers (no trans fat, no soda in NY) to EVERYBODY. Why do union members get to be exempt from all of the fantastic parts of being an adult?

LOL.

 

[Stoked]

I guess that's what makes you Americans different from the rest of the world. I am quite okay with forcing a few to suffer for the good of the many.

That is a differance I am more than willing to accept.

Edit: I know you did not mean it that way but that line of thinking has lead to generations of hurt.

 

[green]

If it was up to me, private schools would be illegal, along with home schooling. If you want private schools, we should just have a completely private school system and then you could all live with it.

I would love that. Have you seen how far our science and math skills have fallen? You are a teacher. Have you ever taken a calculus class? Teachers these days do not need any upper division math, science or english classes to become a teacher. That is ridiculous. That is what unions get you. Falling scores, under qualified teachers, and rising costs.

 

[green]

I guess that's what makes you Americans different from the rest of the world. I am quite okay with forcing a few to suffer for the good of the many.

No, you are okay with forcing others to suffer so you don't have to. That's the difference. You don't want to play by the rules everybody else has to play by.

 

[green]

Well, get a union, muffin. That's why they exist. To protect me from crap.

LOL. So you admit everything we have been saying is true. LOL.

*shakes head*

 

[Stoked]

Well, get a union, muffin. That's why they were created. To protect me from crap.

Fixed. Now they exist to force others to accept your crap.

 

[JimLes]

I firmly reject that notion that if I have a chance to better my childs future I should not take it because littel SUzies parents down the block did not get that chance. Even reverse that. If little Suzies parents came to me saying they were not taking the opportunity to better their childs future by sending her to a better school, because I didn't get the chance to do that for my daughters, I'd call them idiots to their faces.

Wait, so then if I have a chance to better my salary and my working conditions, I should not take it because it hurts you?

 

[JimLes]

I would love that. Have you seen how far our science and math skills have fallen? You are a teacher. Have you ever taken a calculus class? Teachers these days do not need any upper division math, science or english classes to become a teacher. That is ridiculous. That is what unions get you. Falling scores, under qualified teachers, and rising costs.

I don't live in the USofA, nor am I a teacher there.

And it's best we don't start discussing finer points of teaching, because you're not exactly competent to decide what is a qualified teacher.

 

[Stoked]

Wait, so then if I have a chance to better my salary and my working conditions, I should not take it because it hurts you?

Well that depends. How are you getting this opportunity? Are you forcing something on others? Requiring taxpayers to pay an unfair amount of any future pension or pay you get is not the same as more children having the opportunity to have a higher education.

Personally I think teachers should be held to a much higher standard. Higher requirements to be hired. As a result of that they should have much higher pay. Unions kill that by killing the requirments and increasing hte pay. So I am paying more for a worse product. No thanks.

 

[Stoked]

I don't live in the USofA, nor am I a teacher there.

And it's best we don't start discussing finer points of teaching, because you're not exactly competent to decide what is a qualified teacher.

And neither are the unions (not all, generally speaking) as they have shown.

 

[One Brow]

1. Teacher unions lobby against vouchers. That takes away my ability to potentially send my child to a better school.

It also takes away the ability of other parents to drain the school system of resources and the best students, leaving your kid behind with the ones who weren't accpeted by the private schools.

2. Teacher unions (unions in general) make it next to impossible to fire bad employees. In your teacher example that makes it more likely that my child gets a bad teacher.

Bad teachers get fired regularly. Also, most of the bad, experienced teachers are still better than people who have never taught. Teaching well requires years of experience.

3. Unions (and all unions) get involved in things outside "collective barganing". Such as politics.

Do you oppose associations of individuals being politically active?

4. Mandatory particiaption (not all unions). Why should I be forced to give money to people that do not necesarily represnt me. If I want to I can if I do not I should not be forced.

You want to ride free on the hard work and donations of the people who support a union. That's ceretainly understandable.

As for the way the general populace views teachers...well maybe, just maybe, there is a reason teachers are viewed that way. Your bullish, over aggresive unions.

You mean, becasue teachers were so well-respected before the unions?

 

[One Brow]

No they are not. Can they be fired? Yes but it is not "easy" .

How many schools systems have you worked for in an administrative capacity? As a teacher? Or, are you relying on media reports?

 

[One Brow]

Have you ever taken a pay cut because the board of directors is trying to impress the stock holders before a shareholders meeting? I have. Same crap. Cry me a river.

How many outside PACs contributed to that stockholder election?