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OMG Doc>>>>>>>>>>>CoTy

Hack said:
Well we may not see whats going on, but do you not believe that Al and Paul had some value around the league? I do. What the hell is going on there? Why is this over load group of bigs still together?

You guys may think these guys dont have any value, but they do. Just look at how bad people hated Boozer, and Chicago couldnt wait to sign him up. Now they realized their mistake and want to dump him. Look at AK. Fans around here thought he wasn't worth squat, then minnesota gives him 10 mil a year. The value is/was there. Problem is KOC thinks Al is going to lead us to the promise land.
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I don't think that's the case with Big Al right now. It certainly wasn't with Boozer. We were all critical of KOC for failing to trade Carlos. But what was offered...taking on a bunch of aging, overpriced vets for 4-5 years? Did we want a guy like Rip Hamilton locked in at his salary? Or a couple of lesser guys adding up to Boozer's contract? I know Al didn't work out, but the reason we could get him is that KOC didn't go out and make a bad trade for Carlos.

Millsap and Jefferson certainly have value. And we've heard from enough sources that they're on the market. I just think right now teams are probably trying to offering longer-term junk in return. We're not going to get a star for either of those guys. But we shouldn't take back bad contracts, either. AS the deadline approcahes, I think a contender may step forward. And the offer will probably be a 1st-rounder, which would fall in the mid-to-late 20's and some throw-ins. Is that better than having their full salary come off the books? Perhaps not.
 
MoTown16 said:
I don't think that's the case with Big Al right now. It certainly wasn't with Boozer. We were all critical of KOC for failing to trade Carlos. But what was offered...taking on a bunch of aging, overpriced vets for 4-5 years? Did we want a guy like Rip Hamilton locked in at his salary? Or a couple of lesser guys adding up to Boozer's contract? I know Al didn't work out, but the reason we could get him is that KOC didn't go out and make a bad trade for Carlos.

Millsap and Jefferson certainly have value. And we've heard from enough sources that they're on the market. I just think right now teams are probably trying to offering longer-term junk in return. We're not going to get a star for either of those guys. But we shouldn't take back bad contracts, either. AS the deadline approcahes, I think a contender may step forward. And the offer will probably be a 1st-rounder, which would fall in the mid-to-late 20's and some throw-ins. Is that better than having their full salary come off the books? Perhaps not.
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Im hoping that the clippers believe that they are one decent piece from being a true contender and decide that millsap or jefferson (more likely millsap) is a piece that could get them there. Hopefully they would offer bledsoe and a pick. Im not sold at all on bledsoe but he is young and athletic and an upgrade over watson and tinsley, plus we would get favors and kanter the minutes that they need/deserve/should be getting.
 
fishonjazz said:
Im hoping that the clippers believe that they are one decent piece from being a true contender and decide that millsap or jefferson (more likely millsap) is a piece that could get them there. Hopefully they would offer bledsoe and a pick. Im not sold at all on bledsoe but he is young and athletic and an upgrade over watson and tinsley, plus we would get favors and kanter the minutes that they need/deserve/should be getting.
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I'd say 16 in a row (soon to be 17) already has the Clippers believing they're a true contender without making any changes at all. The ONLY way the Jazz get value for Jefferson or Millsap is:

1) A contender has a big man get seriously injured.
2) A terrible team decides to jettison salry and only wants Millsap or Jefferson as an expiring contract. We'd have to be to willing to take on a veteran with 3-4 years remaining. And probably one who is having a disappointing year.
 
MoTown16 said:
I'd say 16 in a row (soon to be 17) already has the Clippers believing they're a true contender without making any changes at all. The ONLY way the Jazz get value for Jefferson or Millsap is:

1) A contender has a big man get seriously injured.
2) A terrible team decides to jettison salry and only wants Millsap or Jefferson as an expiring contract. We'd have to be to willing to take on a veteran with 3-4 years remaining. And probably one who is having a disappointing year.
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Maybe they believe they are contenders already (i dont), but even if they do believe that, they still might want to get even better right?
 
billyshelby said:
I respect that you have a different opinion. But honestly, don't you wonder what the Carlisle's or Thib's could do with the same talent we have? Or look at Skiles. Do you honestly think Milwaukee has more talent up and down their roster than we do? I don't even think Golden State has more talent than us.

I like Ty. But I don't think he's a pro coach and certainly not the guy to lead the next generation once Favors/Kanter replace Al/Sap.
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Of course I wonder. I don't think Corbins perfect by any measure, just don't know if we'll ever have a situation to judge him fairly from. I'm not going to throw the guy under the bus without having something to go on.
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To me, all the evidence points to a coach who was dealt a bad hand and has to manage between development, win now, & sustain whatever value the players of today have for K O'Lindsey.
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Corbin has answered every single criticism this board has put forth yet gets no credit? "Popps runs excellent offensive sets". Yeah, well Corbin is running identical plays (unless you ask hater JJAS). "Corbin won't play young guys". Corbin moves toward Burks when Foye loses his shot. Corbin tries to give Favors offensive leash. Corbin tries to develop Haywad's frustrating offense. Corbin tries to get Kanter post touches he doesn't deserve. "Corbin needs to move away from Jeffy ball". Yeah, he did it and the players couldn't succeed. He's still doing it. "Corbin needs ingamestrategy for each game". Corbin has telegraphed specific changes in games like against NOH. Response was "why didn't he play Favors [against Ryan Anderson]". He just ****ing told us why not!
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Bottom line is Corbin could win more games with this team if that were the only goal. Instead, he's transitioning away from the vets in a sneaky little way where they don't realize it as much, the youngins get theirs, & the FO has highest possible value to go shopping with.
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One last thing that I've asked you before: I don't get how you don't see offensive improvement in the Jazz. Yeah, they've regressed a ton. But around game 20 or so they were obviously implementing more sets and growing.
 
franklin said:
Of course I wonder. I don't think Corbins perfect by any measure, just don't know if we'll ever have a situation to judge him fairly from. I'm not going to throw the guy under the bus without having something to go on.
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To me, all the evidence points to a coach who was dealt a bad hand and has to manage between development, win now, & sustain whatever value the players of today have for K O'Lindsey.
.
Corbin has answered every single criticism this board has put forth yet gets no credit? "Popps runs excellent offensive sets". Yeah, well Corbin is running identical plays (unless you ask hater JJAS). "Corbin won't play young guys". Corbin moves toward Burks when Foye loses his shot. Corbin tries to give Favors offensive leash. Corbin tries to develop Haywad's frustrating offense. Corbin tries to get Kanter post touches he doesn't deserve. "Corbin needs to move away from Jeffy ball". Yeah, he did it and the players couldn't succeed. He's still doing it. "Corbin needs ingamestrategy for each game". Corbin has telegraphed specific changes in games like against NOH. Response was "why didn't he play Favors [against Ryan Anderson]". He just ****ing told us why not!
.
Bottom line is Corbin could win more games with this team if that were the only goal. Instead, he's transitioning away from the vets in a sneaky little way where they don't realize it as much, the youngins get theirs, & the FO has highest possible value to go shopping with.
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One last thing that I've asked you before: I don't get how you don't see offensive improvement in the Jazz. Yeah, they've regressed a ton. But around game 20 or so they were obviously implementing more sets and growing.
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Just a couple of things that you got wrong: Corbin didn't move toward burks when foye lost his shot.... he moved toward burks when an injury happened (mo williams) just like last year (raja bell, josh howard injuries). His hand was forced somewhat.

You say "corbin moved away from jeffy ball and the players couldn't succeed". Cant remember if our record is 6-1 or 7-1 without jeffy.... I think that is pretty successful, so apparently the players COULD succeed without jeffy ball.

I agree with you about him being dealt a tough hand to manage between development, win now, & sustain whatever value the players of today have for K O'Lindsey. However, he gets paid the big bucks to manage that and things like subbing in favors for defense at the end of games and getting burks into the rotation from the beginning are things that he should be doing regardless of the tough hand he was dealt.
 
So how many minutes is Burks playing of Mo's would be minutes?

Burks playing time is coming from Carroll's minutes and a little of Foye's maybe, the only way the injury could be taken into account is because Mo's absence takes a scorer away and Watson/Tinsley have scored a whopping 3pts since Mo went down and have more TO's then assists. Since Corbin doesn't make these type's of adjustments it can't be that as well as Burks so far has played majority with the bench players and not starters so his scoring wouldn't be able to pick up the slack of not having Mo all that much.

For the rest I think they still go to Al too much and the success or lack there of when they don't could be many different reasons.
 
How can anyone justify how little Corbin has done to fix the starting lineup, a lineup which had lead to a first quarter deficit in 11 of the last 12 games. The slow starting is so obvious, he either is completely blind or totally obtuse when it comes to it.

Or how about the mechanical out-subbing of the young players who have brought us back for the very same vets that created the hole in the first place. It has gone on too long for "learning" to be an excuse. The "dealt a bad hand excuse" could fly in his first half season and the lockout season, but what bad hand has he been given this season? Too many good ish players to balance?
 
I do think especially with Mo out Hayward could be more apart of the offense especially if they could also move Millsap to the 6th man role. Or another thing I would like is put Burks starting to see if he could be a spark they are missing and move Foye back to the bench.
 
//r00t 4 Jazz said:
So how many minutes is Burks playing of Mo's would be minutes?

Burks playing time is coming from Carroll's minutes and a little of Foye's maybe, the only way the injury could be taken into account is because Mo's absence takes a scorer away and Watson/Tinsley have scored a whopping 3pts since Mo went down and have more TO's then assists. Since Corbin doesn't make these type's of adjustments it can't be that as well as Burks so far has played majority with the bench players and not starters so his scoring wouldn't be able to pick up the slack of not having Mo all that much.

For the rest I think they still go to Al too much and the success or lack there of when they don't could be many different reasons.
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Yes, you said it right in your post.... corbin has said burks is playing because they need scoring due to mo being out... so like i said, burks is playing because mo is hurt.
Plus foye lost his shot about 10 games before burks started playing.... also we didn't have foye last year so was corbin waiting for CJ miles shots to stop falling before playing burks?
 
//r00t 4 Jazz said:
I do think especially with Mo out Hayward could be more apart of the offense especially if they could also move Millsap to the 6th man role. Or another thing I would like is put Burks starting to see if he could be a spark they are missing and move Foye back to the bench.
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These things could happen and could help the team, but right now the starting lineup is about as veteran as it could get, so it is perfect for corbin and unlikely to change.
 
Sneakers said:
How can anyone justify how little Corbin has done to fix the starting lineup, a lineup which had lead to a first quarter deficit in 11 of the last 12 games. The slow starting is so obvious, he either is completely blind or totally obtuse when it comes to it.
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Probably only an idiot using the same reasons you gave in this post.

Sneakers said:
Or how about the mechanical out-subbing of the young players who have brought us back for the very same vets that created the hole in the first place. It has gone on too long for "learning" to be an excuse. The "dealt a bad hand excuse" could fly in his first half season and the lockout season, but what bad hand has he been given this season? Too many good ish players to balance?
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In that case, Corbin is the best coach in the league for taking that garbage to the playoffs last season.
 
franklin said:
One last thing that I've asked you before: I don't get how you don't see offensive improvement in the Jazz. Yeah, they've regressed a ton. But around game 20 or so they were obviously implementing more sets and growing.
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I do think Ty has tried some new things this year. We're running a lot more high/low with the bigs than we ever have. The flex cuts to initiate the offense from the wing have been simplified (although I really don't understand why we run Foye off pin downs for long 2's when he's specifically a bad shooter on that play or long 2's in general.) A few weeks ago we saw Marvin take his first baseline cuts (now abandoned). We even have a new wrinkle where I see Paul diving down from the high post when Al is on the block.

The problem is it all looks like experimentation with plays, not facets of a total offense.

And some of the same issues that have plagued us for his entire tenure never get fixed: 1. We start the offense way too late in the shot clock; 2) The post possessions for every player, not just Al, are basically ISO's with no cuts (no Brewer baseline, no AK from the opposite wing); 3. There is clearly no plan on how to reset the offense once an initial play/PnR doesn't work. In my opinion, we're now officially into inexcusable territory.
 
Incidentally Franklin, I do agree that Ty has gone back to the Jeffy Offense (although it's really the post dump offense that plays the same with Sap/Kanter/Favors). But that's still an indictment. My ten cent psychoanalysis is he watched how discombobulated we have become over the last 10 and wanted to 'simplify.' Yet we should still be able to work basic concepts into a post dominant offense. It's not that hard to call for a Marvin baseline cut, a Hayward crosscut.

For me the bigger issue is our half court offense has been a problem all year, it's not developing, and Ty seems to have lost control on how to fix it (which presumes he even knows how which I also question.)
 
billyshelby said:
I do think Ty has tried some new things this year. We're running a lot more high/low with the bigs than we ever have. The flex cuts to initiate the offense from the wing have been simplified (although I really don't understand why we run Foye off pin downs for long 2's when he's specifically a bad shooter on that play or long 2's in general.) A few weeks ago we saw Marvin take his first baseline cuts (now abandoned). We even have a new wrinkle where I see Paul diving down from the high post when Al is on the block.

The problem is it all looks like experimentation with plays, not facets of a total offense.

And some of the same issues that have plagued us for his entire tenure never get fixed: 1. We start the offense way too late in the shot clock; 2) The post possessions for every player, not just Al, are basically ISO's with no cuts (no Brewer baseline, no AK from the opposite wing); 3. There is clearly no plan on how to reset the offense once an initial play/PnR doesn't work. In my opinion, we're now officially into inexcusable territory.
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I agree with every bit of this other than the Ty vs. Player (non)debate. I've called for more high-low, more Sap pushing down w/ AJ in the block, more wing entry into Al then cut baseline (Ma), & no damned doubt not letting Foye shoot anything beside a 3 point shot.

Bottom line for me, right now, is a lack of talent to run anything well, especially once the first option breaks down. For all I care, this may be a fault of Ty. It's definitely a player issue so that's what I'm defaulting to until enough evidence points otherwise. You may see some serious Corbin hate post-trade deadline from me. We might also see some serious love from the development side of this board.
 
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