The costs of gay marriage

[Hartsock]

So you think it is ok for a private photographer to decline to shoot a lesbian wedding based on their religious beliefs, be sued and be forced to shoot the wedding anyway?

I do not.

I think its gray area. I think the gay couple should find another photographer, but according to law the photographer was breaking the law. Would it be ok for the photog to not shoot interracial marriages, or not shoot muslim weddings? I think its kind of the same idea.

 

[Stoked]

I think its gray area. I think the gay couple should find another photographer, but according to law the photographer was breaking the law. Would it be ok for the photog to not shoot interracial marriages, or not shoot muslim weddings? I think its kind of the same idea.

Actually yes, as long as that business was private and not a gov. sponsored entity.

For example let us say that a small town florist refuses to serve hispanics. I believe they have that right. In turn I would not give them my business and would advise others not to and why.

I am against the notion that a private entity/person has to be forced into compliance with something. (Yes there are some exceptions but where do we draw the line?)

 

[The Black Swordsman]

That's not the right they're asking for. And the stuff about the world's troubles is irrelevant to the subject. Also, I'm glad you think we should base our morality on what random Asian countries do. I was worried there for a second that you want to impose your Islam-inspired morality on those who don't care about Islam or what it has to say about the matter.

You have once again failed to answer a single one of the questions I brought up and completely straw manned me. I never stated we should make our morals follow Asian countries. You also failed to provide any evidence supporting your position. Overall you get an F- for your irrationality. Unfortumately for you I am a man of reason, logic, science, and rationality so I cannot agree with you.

 

[Siro]

Actually yes as long as that business was private and not a gov. sponsored entity.

For example let us saw that a small town florist refuses to serve hispanics. I believe they have that right. In turn i would not give them my business and would advise others not to and why.

I am against the notion that a private entity/person has to be forced into compliance with something.

So private businesses operating in a community should not be held to the community's standards? Government is just an extension of community that intends to enforce their standards.

 

[Stoked]

You have once again failed to answer a single one of the questions I brought up and completely straw manned me. I never stated we should make our morals follow Asian countries. You also failed to provide any evidence supporting your position. Overall you get an F- for your irrationality. Unfortumately for you I am a man of reason, logic, science, and rationality so I cannot agree with you.

Perhaps Siro does not think you deserve more. I'd agree.

 

[Hartsock]

Actually yes, as long as that business was private and not a gov. sponsored entity.

For example let us say that a small town florist refuses to serve hispanics. I believe they have that right. In turn I would not give them my business and would advise others not to and why.

I am against the notion that a private entity/person has to be forced into compliance with something. (Yes there are some exceptions but where do we draw the line?)

I actually agree. Its not ok, but it should be allowed. If that person wants to operate their business like that then thats their priority. But by NM law public service businesses are not allowed to discriminate. Its their law.

 

[Stoked]

So private businesses operating in a community should not be held to the community's standards? Government is just an extension of community that intends to enforce their standards.

If a business does not have the standards of the community they are in than that community can take their business elsewhere and the business will close or leave. I do not need governement telling me what I can and cannot do, with in reason. That is why I support gay marriage, pot legalization, right to refuse services as a private entity...

 

[Stoked]

I actually agree. Its not ok, but it should be allowed. If that person wants to operate their business like that then thats their priority. But by NM law public service businesses are not allowed to discriminate. Its their law.

Exactly! Keep in mind my stance is on private entities not public ones.

 

[The Black Swordsman]

Perhaps Siro does not think you deserve more. I'd agree.

I take that as a compliment as I would expect people who are irrational to disagree with me and agree with each other.

 

[Stoked]

I take that as a compliment as I would expect people who are irrational to disagree with me and agree with each other.

Nice to see you can keep that old, tired, broken record around. You have to save your limited mental faculties for when it counts.

 

[Siro]

If a business does not have the standards of the community they are in than that community can take their business elsewhere and the business will close or leave. I do not need governement telling me what I can and cannot do, with in reason. That is why I support gay marriage, pot legalization, right to refuse services as a private entity...

The problem is that you're viewing business as somehow separate from the rest of human experience. What businesses do affect more than themselves (just like any other organization). I don't see why businesses are the only organization immune from moral enforcement.

 

[Stoked]

The problem is that you're viewing business as somehow separate from the rest of human experience. What businesses do affect more than themselves (just like any other organization). I don't see why businesses are the only organization immune from moral enforcement.

I'm using a private business as an example of a private entity. Take your pick of an example.

Say Catholic adoption agencies refusing to place children in the homes of gay couples.

Or a Muslim lecturer refusing to do a speech at BYU.

 

[Hartsock]

Exactly! Keep in mind my stance is on private entities not public ones.

I'll assume that law was created to keep the native americans from being discriminated against, but technically it covers gays as well.

 

[Siro]

I'm using a private business as an example of a private entity. Take your pic of an example.

It isn't a private entity the same way a person is a private entity. Businesses are social and interactive. Their entire existence depends on resource exchange with others. Surely you agree that businesses should not be allowed to steal from you. Or kill the competition. They are held to many of the same standards as others, because it is perfectly rational to do so. Keep in mind that even private people are held to a plethora of moral standards. But businesses must be held to the same standards as other organizations that interact with the public.

 

[Stoked]

I'll assume that law was created to keep the native americans from being discriminated against, but technically it covers gays as well.

I think discrimination laws are a fantastic thing in there proper place. Like preventing discrimination in college admissions, gov. service/employment, marriage...

 

[Stoked]

It isn't a private entity the same way a person is a private entity.

Businesses are social and interactive. Their entire existence depends on resource exchange with others. Surely you agree that businesses should not be allowed to steal from you. Or kill the competition. They are held to many of the same standards as others, because it is perfectly rational to do so. Keep in mind that even private people are held to a plethora of moral standards. But businesses must be held to the same standards as other organizations that interact with the public.

I situationally disagree.

Obviously there are limits. As there should be. I also agree that a business thrives on exchange of good/services. However if they are stupid enough to limit their potential clients in a dangerous way then they deserve to go out of business of be driven from that community.

 

[Siro]

I situationally disagree.

Obviously there are limits. As there should be. I also agree that a business thrives on exchange of good/services. However if they are stupid enough to limit their potential clients in a dangerous way then they deserve to go out of business of be driven from that community.

I find that libertarian view quite strange. Why not simply hold everyone to the same standards? It just seems so arbitrary to so strongly associate freedom with that single aspect of daily life. Oh well, I guess we better keep this about gay marriage.

 

[Scat]

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/im-gay-and-i-oppose-gay-marriage/

 

[Stoked]

I find that libertarian view quite strange. Why not simply hold everyone to the same standards? It just seems so arbitrary to so strongly associate freedom with that single aspect of daily life. Oh well, I guess we better keep this about gay marriage.

That right there gets to the heart of the matter. Becasue I believe that, within reason, it should be us that decides how to live our own lives.

I am personally against abortion but if some girl is idiotic enough to get one than she should have that right.

 

[Sean]

If a business does not have the standards of the community they are in than that community can take their business elsewhere and the business will close or leave. I do not need governement telling me what I can and cannot do, with in reason. That is why I support gay marriage, pot legalization, right to refuse services as a private entity...

In a simplistic world, you'd absolutely have a point. But the world ain't black and white. You're dealing with a mighty fine slippery slope signing off on the idea that private business should be allowed to discriminate anyway they want - especially with the push to privatize our healthcare, education and mail services.

Case in point: You live in a town of 10,000 people. The nearest hospital is a privately run center that receives minimal government funding. You're black, or Hispanic, or gay, and you dial 911, which is now run through a private corporation, and ask for an ambulance because your wife is having a massive heart attack. Under your rationale, not only can the private 911 service refuse to do anything for you, because they have the right to deny services to anyone they want (it should be legal), if you somehow got through, and they sent a private ambulance to pick you up, they too could deny services. Moreover, so could the private hospital - since it would be perfectly legal to discriminate, even if you believe it wrong. I mean, all they would have to do is go to another hospital that would accept them, right?

I know you're thinking this sounds extremely unlikely - but how unlikely was it for blacks in the 60s era south? We're trying to privatize prisons, fire services and even police services - don't you see the potential for conflict if we accept the idea that a private entity can discriminate based on whatever they want?

A private mail service would be under no obligation to deliver mail to a black family if they really didn't want to. A private school could deny a child because he was black if they wanted to. A hospital could refuse to treat a HIV patient, regardless of their condition, because discrimination in the private entity should be absolutely legal.

It's deeper than just saying your stance is that of just private entities when so many institutions are being privatized today. Where do you draw the line? Is it okay for a private business to refuse to sit a black family - but it's not okay for a private ambulance service to refuse to serve a dying black person? If you accept one, you have to accept the other - that's how it works.