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Are you guys completely cool with your kids dating/marrying someone of a different race?

While some people try to disguise a "just shut up" argument, I accept this was not your intent. However, unless you are saying that only women should be arguing against sexism, I don't understand your claim of hypocrisy.

Are you saying that it is not possible for a measurable phenomenon to be directly related to feelings and experiences? Are you asking for a list of effects that can be/have been seen/studied/measured? What authority have I seized?

By all appearances you are being a hypocrite. So far you haven't offered anything that indicates an effort to rise above you new cultural hypocrisy you have adopted, but your words and posting habits show the symptoms of reinforcing it and then turning a blind eye toward your actions. While I think you think you are right and that you see things that others don't and that you think you are always right, I think you only see part of the picture and refuse to look at things in any other way. It could be because you think you know it all already because you've "been there and done that", or because you don't want to rock the boat of non belief you are comfortable with. You play with words and try to spin things to sound nice and that you know what you're talking about, but you talk in circles and never actually get anything done with your posting, and never seem to understand points other people make as part of your endless circle of arguments. It's like a bolt that is stripped, you keep turning and turning but stay in the same spot.

You speak about how women are treated, and what is fair for women, yet if someone else speaks about how women are treated from another perspective you dismiss their words because they are not women and have not walked in their shoes (even if the poster is a woman). If you don't get how you are being a hypocrite and want to continue to either act like you don't get it or that you don't understand what is being said, then it tells me in yet another instance that you are trolling again and that maybe your whole schtick is a troll. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I'm about done with that.

This is why I stopped with my explanation earlier, I see no point in wasting effort on a troll. Someone that refuses to understand, will never understand.
 
Maybe you should open your eyes a little more? Are you short? Old? Rich? Fat? Female? What makes you think you understand their experiences?

I am speaking for my perspective, about what I believe is important. Is there some reason this should not be important to me?

So you are a man speaking about what is important to women?
Why can silesian not speak about what is important from his perspective? Why does he have to be Old, Rich, Fat, or Female to speak for them or understand their experiences?

It's not about it being important, it's the know it all attitude coupled with the hyprocrisy that makes people shake their heads at you and your absurd, idiotic, moronic, and foolish arguments.
 
I am speaking for my perspective, about what I believe is important. Is there some reason this should not be important to me?

You missed the point either by accident or intentionally. I am leaning towards intentionally. Spazz has given a worhty rebuttal.
 
By all appearances you are being a hypocrite. So far you haven't offered anything that indicates an effort to rise above you new cultural hypocrisy you have adopted, but your words and posting habits show the symptoms of reinforcing it and then turning a blind eye toward your actions.

I've already offered some specific examples of things I've learned to recognize and change, and in fact it was in a response to you (post #441 in this thread). Could you go into more detail about the specific belief you feel I am endorsing but not acting upon?

you ... never seem to understand points other people make ...

Many times in the past, when this charge has been leveled at me, it was based on the assumption that if I understood a point, I would acknowledge its validity. I reject that assumption. So, I'm just curious: how would you tell the difference between the two, that is, between my misunderstanding a point and my understanding yet rejecting of a point? Why do you infer the former and not the latter has occurred?

Now, in this particular case, you might be referring to some point(s) I genuinely did not understand. Feel free to present them again. However, don't be surprised if I say I understand, and reject, that point.

You speak about how women are treated, and what is fair for women, yet if someone else speaks about how women are treated from another perspective you dismiss their words because they are not women and have not walked in their shoes (even if the poster is a woman).

If you mean that I dismiss the perspective that woman and men need to treated differently because some religious doctrine so indicates, you are absolutely correct. Perspectives can be inherently unjust (that is, have unjust principles built into them). I don't think it's the least bit hypocritical to point that out, and I don't think pointing it out indicates any lack of understanding.

Also, I didn't bring up the feelings and experiences in the first place, that was silesian in post #426, in response to "Sexism will either be misogynistic or misandristic, simply because if there is no inferiority, there is no need to segregate.", a sentence that says nothing at all about how people feel. He brought into the discussion to notion of seeing hatred (a condition I had never said must apply, and actively argued against). My response was that silesian didn't appreciate the overall experience, and by focusing on hatred held by a person, he was missing the point. You are correct that I am not short, old, rich, fat, or female; I don't pretend to say exactly what their experiences are. I do have sufficient understanding to say that silesian has no reason to discount the accounts of people who relay their experiences.

I agree this is a different thing from telling someone how they feel or should feel about the unjust experience. For example, I have not once told PearlWatson that I rejected her depictions of her own feelings or opinions. However, and you may have not realized this, some people don't mind being treated unfairly, and indeed may have been taught from birth that the unfair treatment is appropriate. In the days of slavery, some slaves were content in their slavery. Some women are content in being treated with contempt, even finding some noble purpose in it. That does not make the unfair treatment just or fair. I wouldn't think of telling any woman that she feels oppressed or experiences some reaction to her oppression; the oppression remains, nonetheless.

If you don't get how you are being a hypocrite

I genuinely don't. Based on your description, you seem to think that I have been telling people how they feel or should feel (I may have misunderstood that point, but it is an honest evaluation of your complaint). If I have understood you correctly, I challenge you to present an example of that. If I misunderstood what my claimed hypocrisy is concerning, please try again.

I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I'm about done with that.

As you wish.
 
So you are a man speaking about what is important to women?

Women are not a monolithic group, so the notion of "important to women" is itself a fiction. As I just said, I'm speaking about what is important to me. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

Why can silesian not speak about what is important from his perspective?

He can, and should.

Why does he have to be Old, Rich, Fat, or Female to speak for them or understand their experiences?

If he is so qualified, he should. Go back and check the post, though. He was not even attempting to do that, qualified or otherwise. He was speaking about the tall/young/poor/thin/men not feeling hatred. My response meant that the lack of hatred by the one group did not change the experiences relayed by the other group. "I mean well" doesn't give someone a free pass to do bad things.
 
Women are not a monolithic group, so the notion of "important to women" is itself a fiction. As I just said, I'm speaking about what is important to me. Why is that so hard for you to understand?



He can, and should.



If he is so qualified, he should. Go back and check the post, though. He was not even attempting to do that, qualified or otherwise. He was speaking about the tall/young/poor/thin/men not feeling hatred. My response meant that the lack of hatred by the one group did not change the experiences relayed by the other group. "I mean well" doesn't give someone a free pass to do bad things.

So once again you can and he cannot. Got it.
 
So once again you can and he cannot. Got it.

I can not reconcile this response with both honest intentions on your part and a basic ability to read what I wrote. In particular, after I explicitly said, 'If he can, he should' and 'I did not'.

So, what precisely are saying that I think I can do but sliesian can not do?
 
I can not reconcile this response with both honest intentions on your part and a basic ability to read what I wrote. In particular, after I explicitly said, 'If he can, he should' and 'I did not'.

So, what precisely are saying that I think I can do but sliesian can not do?

After you called him out about it. There are earlier posts where you speak for a group you are not a part of but question others ability/worthiness to do so. Seems extremely hypocritical to me.
 
Scenario: Your 16 year old daughter likes a guy. Invites him over for dinner one night.


Family gets excited. Door bells, you (mother or father) open the door. Theres some black dude chilling at the door, same age as your daughter.

You don't know anything about his personality just yet. Let's say he's dressed like a normal 16 year old dude.


What his your first reaction? Does it change as the night goes on?
It had to be a black guy, huh?

Regardless of race or whatever, a white guy can play your daughter just like a Hispanic, Black, Asian, Pacific Islander and the etcetera can. Relocate from Deliverance.
 
Irony defined!

Maybe you should open your eyes a little more? Are you short? Old? Rich? Fat? Female? What makes you think you understand their experiences?

The irony of your question "What makes you think you understand their experiences?" is precious! I'm assuming that your belief about all sexism is misandry or misogyny is based on your experience as a women, and as a man. From now on, let's agree that you and I will only discuss things that we have experienced personally. I assume you base your comments on the Utah Jazz based on your time in the NBA -- Doh!

When I point out numerous examples of how segregation can exist without contempt and inferiority, you call that a smoke screen?" It is called disproving your thesis, dude. And by making your thesis categorical and unnuanced, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.
 
After you called him out about it.

Called silesian out about what?

There are earlier posts where you speak for a group you are not a part of but question others ability/worthiness to do so. Seems extremely hypocritical to me.

Was silesian attempting to speak for those groups in question, within the post to which I responded? If so, I missed it. Please point it out.
 
The irony of your question "What makes you think you understand their experiences?" is precious!

So is your apparent belief that intent is magic. As a reminder, here's your comment, followed by my reply.

Maybe you are seeing hatred in places it does not exist?

Maybe you should open your eyes a little more? Are you short? Old? Rich? Fat? Female? What makes you think you understand their experiences?

Now, perhaps you're not smart enough to understand that my reply was directed to the quote that immediately preceded it. Perhaps you don't realize this: at no point in that quote were you attempting to portray the experiences of short/old/fat/female/other disadvantaged groups. Perhaps you don't get how what a comment responds to can alter the meaning of that comment.

So, I'll rephrase for you:

Maybe you are seeing hatred in places it does not exist?

Maybe you should open your eyes a little more? Are you short? Old? Rich? Fat? Female? What makes you think it mattes whether actual hatred is behind the actions that disregard, demean, disrespect, discount, and discourage people in disadvantaged groups?

Clearer now?

When I point out numerous examples of how segregation can exist without contempt and inferiority, you call that a smoke screen?"

No, I call that you being completely clueless and unaware of the the actual experiences of people, the research that has been done, and the general aspects of human behavior whenever group divisions are formed. I only used "smoke screen" on the particular issue of roller coasters and short people, because I made a guess that you are not a roller coaster engineer and don't regularly read literature on roller coaster design, so you don't really have an knowledge of the degree of prejudice versus necessity in roller coaster manufacturing (neither do I). Feel free to correct me if I am wrong in that assumption. Absent knowledge, neither of us can do more than shrug our shoulders at it.

For example, It may be that it would be impossible to design a sufficiently secure harness for the general public that can cover people that are 7 feet tall or 4 feet tall (yes, you can be too tall for these rides if the harness does not latch). My expectations would then be that the harnesses are made to cover most of the public. Similarly, if it is necessary that, say, a firefighter be able to carry 100 pounds on their shoulder, I have no issue with that standard being set, even if it means fewer women will be firefighters.

So, on that one issue, I punted because I didn't know what I was talking about, and AFAICT, neither did you. On every other issue you mentioned, I pointed out the problem with your depiction (the notion of the rich as disadvantaged is quite amusing, by the way). So naturally, you focused on the first. I guess you have nothing else but ignorance to carry you along.

It is called disproving your thesis, dude. And by making your thesis categorical and unnuanced, this is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Then I suggest you take better aim. So far, you're missing the barrel.
 
Called silesian out about what?



Was silesian attempting to speak for those groups in question, within the post to which I responded? If so, I missed it. Please point it out.

You directly called him out about speaking for groups he is not a part of ad yet you do the exact same thing. Try to spin or down play it how ever you want but you know and I know that is exactly what you did.
 
You directly called him out about speaking for groups he is not a part of

Actually, I did not, as I have stated many times by now. Further, I have explained what I did call him out for (his claims that a lack of hatred on the part of one group meant there was no discrimination toward an opposite group), in separate responses to you, JazzSpazz, and silesian. If you have a reason to say my explanation does fit, please say so. If not, please continue to make pointless, false accusations.
 
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