Are Jazz stuck?

[Hopper]

Your mention of the Russian interview appears to be a lot of your interpretation of what the interview implied. My interpretation of that year is that he might've slacked off on the offense because he didn't get enough touches in the first place, not that the plays were not spectacular enough. Neither explanation is a good excuse; nevertheless, they still beg the question of what the coaching staff (Sloan) did about it.

No, not at all. That's what AK said in his interviews, I merely noted that my summary was not intended as verbatim quotes. AK said he had talked to Sloan, but wasn't gunna do it anymore. He mentioned that Sloan was primarily asking for him to contribute via his defense and all- around game. AK said such a role was not appropriate for a player with his salary. He first claimed that NO plays in the Jazz offense were designed for him, but later admitted that there were plays, but that he didn't like them because they were too structured. As I recall, Sloan admitted his incompetence as a psychologist, and the Jazz hired a team psychologist, who presumably tried to tend to AK (and others).

My Mama, she done told me, that there one time, and all, she said: Looky here, aint-boy, ya can put a bit in this mouth and drag a hoss down to the crick, but, I don't care if ya wear out a whole pallet of 2 x 4's on his sorry ***, you can't MAKE him drink. Remember that, boy, she said.

 

[mfree]

We have to make some kind of franchise-changing move this summer, its envitable. But that move could easily be drafting Aldrich at 9 and letting Boozer walk for nothing.

While I think they will try to make franchise changing moves this year, the AK47 contract means that the real changes are much more likely to happen next year.

This year, in my opinion will be more about staying pretty competitive while positioning themselves for real change next year.

 

[Gameface]

We have to make some kind of franchise-changing move this summer, its envitable. But that move could easily be drafting Aldrich at 9 and letting Boozer walk for nothing.

GOOGLE:
Did you mean: inevitable Top 2 results shown

 

[Hopper]

I think that the Jazz organization underestimated the negative impact that Sloan had on the team's success in years past.

Yeah, and I think the only reason we continue to have crime in this country is because of the incompetent prison officials who utterly fail to completely rehabilitate every misfit loser who comes through their door.

 

[Scorpjazz]

... I think that the Jazz organization underestimated the negative impact that Sloan had on the team's success in years past....

If, by negative impact, you mean that they won more games with Sloan here than they would have with him not here, then YES, I agree.

 

[InGameStrategy]

If, by negative impact, you mean that they won more games with Sloan here than they would have with him not here, then YES, I agree.

I don't think that it would be hard to find a coach with better substitution patterns and player development. Sloan's strong suit is discipline, but that's easier to replace IMHO.

Anybody could have coached Karl and John to the number of championships that Sloan did.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Yeah, and I think the only reason we continue to have crime in this country is because of the incompetent prison officials who utterly fail to completely rehabilitate every misfit loser who comes through their door.

That is an impressively tangential attempt to respond to my argument.

Prison officials rehabilitating inmates is far less expected than coaches developing players.

 

[Hopper]

S2, can ya tell me a Fess story for bedtime, eh?

 

[InGameStrategy]

No, not at all. That's what AK said in his interviews, I merely noted that my summary was not intended as verbatim quotes. AK said he had talked to Sloan, but wasn't gunna do it anymore. He mentioned that Sloan was primarily asking for him to contribute via his defense and all- around game. AK said such a role was not appropriate for a player with his salary. He first claimed that NO plays in the Jazz offense were designed for him, but later admitted that there were plays, but that he didn't like them because they were too structured. As I recall, Sloan admitted his incompetence as a psychologist, and the Jazz hired a team psychologist, who presumably tried to tend to AK (and others)..

Verbatim quotes aren't necessary. But I think that you are talking out of your distorted memory (or some other orifice). Feel free to provide a citation, sometime, somewhere. In the meantime, I will continue to provide supporting sources below.

AK initially claiming that no plays were designed for him is believable. Whether he said that they were too structured is less believable but possible. In either case, a coach shouldn't allow things to deteriorate to that point. Again, I acknowledge that AK was a prima-donna, but coaches should be more proactive IMHO about keeping players involved in the offense--on both ends of the court, for that matter. That's consistent with my gripe about Sloan letting Boozer and Okur play bad defense for years without enforcing it; who knows how much he actually talked to them about playing legitimate D.

Sloan admitting his incompetence as a "psychologist" is admitting a major weakness as a coach. It's not hard to find a citation that a psychology [managing players' confidence, egos, work ethic, chemistry, etc.] is a key role of successful coaching. https://www.brianmac.co.uk/psych.htm

"That Red [Auerbach] could take people from such a diverse background and blend them to the point of getting them to success night in and night out, for many years, is amazing in any setting. He always knew he had to pick his spots. He was a coach, a psychologist, a baby sitter, a tough guy, a boss and he was successful at doing them all."
https://www.nba.com/news/auerbach_tribute.html

 

[InGameStrategy]

S2, can ya tell me a Fess story for bedtime, eh?

Why don't you roll over and have Sloan tell you one.

 

[Hopper]

Whether he said that they were too structured is less believable but possible.

AK essentially sneered at Harpring for running the offense and executing those plays. He (AK) was better than, and deserved better than, that.

Sloan and AK bumped heads for years over AK's tendency to break plays, stop the ball movement, and freelance, it didn't all start in 2007. But by then Sloan had other options. He no longer had personnel who were predicted to finish with about 10 wins for the year (of which, AK was clearly the best).

 

[InGameStrategy]

AK essentially sneered at Harpring for running the offense and executing those plays. He (AK) was better than, and deserved better than, that.

Sloan and AK bumped heads for years over AK's tendency to break plays, stop the ball movement, and freelance, it didn't all start in 2007. But by then Sloan had other options. He no longer had personnel who were predicted to finish with about 10 wins for the year (of which, AK was clearly the best).

OK, and my lingering question continues to be what Sloan (and the rest of the coaching staff) did to keep AK involved. Did they just bench AK without explanation? Did Sloan assume that AK should be able to figure it out on his own? Or did they actually talk about it or even "bump heads"? AK's quotes suggest that they didn't.

Even though these players are 'professionals' and ideally should suck it up (just like DW's coach said), I suspect that a lot of non-communication was going on, and the interviews support these suspicions IMHO. Worse yet, there was a pattern with several foreign Jazz players. Coincidence? I don't think so.

 

[Hopper]

... there was a pattern with several foreign Jazz players. Coincidence? I don't think so.

I don't think so either. If you're lookin for a purse-totin candyass, then start lookin overseas first.

 

[Hopper]

...my lingering question continues to be what Sloan (and the rest of the coaching staff) did to keep AK involved.

What do you think they were supposed to do? Do you really think that for years Phil Johnson, Ty Corbine, Scott Layden, Sloan, Larry Miller, and all the others who desperately wanted AK to succeed never said anything to him? If you weren't privy to all the instruction, then it couldn't have happened, ya figure? What should they have done? Horse-whipped his sorry ***? (I would say "yeah" to this, but what's your great solution to "cure" a self-centered, obstinate headcase?)

 

[Hopper]

The hard-working, devoted, and successful players under Sloan, such as Stockton, Malone, Williams, etc., invariably seem to express a lot of respect, appreciation, and approval for/of Sloan and his methods. Even guys like John Amaechi, who freely admitted in his book that once he signed a big contract he basically didn't give a rat's *** about playin ball, have said Sloan is a very good coach and teacher. But he wants to whine because Sloan didn't want to indulge his lazy-*** theft of a check from Miller and called him an effin c.

Malone didn't whine. Stockton didn't whine. Williams doesn't whine. Amaechi, Girichek, AK, S2, and their ilk whine. Sorry, but I'll take Stockton and Malone over those pansies every day of the week.

 

[InGameStrategy]

I don't think so either. If you're lookin for a purse-totin candyass, then start lookin overseas first.

Well then, it begs the question of why coaches of the other NBA teams didn't have such a string of run-ins with "purse-totin' candyasses" like Sloan did.

Gregg Popovich won with at least three of them at once.

Here's an article that suggests that Sloan's mode of communication was let players guess why they weren't playing.
https://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20050114/ai_n11501793/?tag=rel.res4

In business and in coaching (and in pretty much any type of leadership situation), such a strategy is inefficient at best and permanently damaging at worst.

Like Kiri, Arroyo was a hothead, but non-communication--or communication delayed for several days--is not coaching.

 

[InGameStrategy]

What do you think they were supposed to do? Do you really think that for years Phil Johnson, Ty Corbine, Scott Layden, Sloan, Larry Miller, and all the others who desperately wanted AK to succeed never said anything to him? If you weren't privy to all the instruction, then it couldn't have happened, ya figure? What should they have done? Horse-whipped his sorry ***? (I would say "yeah" to this, but what's your great solution to "cure" a self-centered, obstinate headcase?)

No, as a coach you are calm, firm, level-headed, and clear. You sit them down for a few plays at a time, not in silence until next game, when the player is replaced by another player. And you communicate immediately, tell them what they are doing wrong and hopefully also providing some positive encouragement also. Just because these players are millionaires doesn't mean they don't like firm, clear communication.

Such silent treatment by Sloan is inefficient at best but more appropriately immature and ineffective.

For the record, I am NOT saying that the players weren't at fault. But that wasn't the original question. The original question was whether Sloan is an effective coach. And with each passing post, I provide more evidence that he was not in some major areas.

 

[InGameStrategy]

The hard-working, devoted, and successful players under Sloan, such as Stockton, Malone, Williams, etc., invariably seem to express a lot of respect, appreciation, and approval for/of Sloan and his methods. Even guys like John Amaechi, who freely admitted in his book that once he signed a big contract he basically didn't give a rat's *** about playin ball, have said Sloan is a very good coach and teacher. But he wants to whine because Sloan didn't want to indulge his lazy-*** theft of a check from Miller and called him an effin c.

Malone didn't whine. Stockton didn't whine. Williams doesn't whine. Amaechi, Girichek, AK, S2, and their ilk whine. Sorry, but I'll take Stockton and Malone over those pansies every day of the week.

I'd take Stockton and Malone over them, also. But no team can fill their teams with Stockalone alone. What a silly argument you pose, Hopper, as if a team doesn't need to surround their cornerstones with role players and journeymen--and make sure that they are a cohesive, effective unit. OF COURSE any team would prefer to fill their entire roster with players of the talent and work ethic of two of the 50 NBA greatest players ever. But not even the Fakers, with a little help from a former player who is a GM for another team, can be successful to do that. And that means that the likes of Phil Jackson, Gregg Popovich, Pat Riley and even Larry Brown (not the best example) have repeatedly been able to put teams together to win it all. No doubt that especially Jackson and Riley like to pick their spots. Meanwhile, Sloan has repeated incidents of non-communication and poor substitution patterns.

 

[Loki]

I dont get why the Jazz dont just trade their worst player for an allstar. That seems to be what everyone keeps thinking. It doesnt matter that it takes two teams to do the trade. The Jazz are at fault.

+1
I mean wow what the hell?

 

[Loki]

Why don't you roll over and have Sloan tell you one.

Is Jerry CHEATING ON ME???