Are Jazz stuck?

[Hopper]

The original question was whether Sloan is an effective coach. And with each passing post, I provide more evidence that he was not in some major areas.

Heh, S2, keep on truckin, with your "evidence," and all, eh?

Mo Williams on Sloan:

“Jerry taught me how to be a point guard.”

“To think versus rely simply on instincts . . . time and possession . . . teammates needing to be spoon-fed . . . not giving the ball to a big man on the break unless he has a free lane . . . creating space –separation — which is the object of the pick-and-roll, and then reading and reacting.”

“A lot of bad words come out of his mouth. But, if you do it right the next time, in his next breath, he’ll praise you just as heatedly. A lot of coaches don’t understand; they beat you down without picking you back up,”

He also said that the best coach he has ever played for on the professional level was, “Jerry Sloan – by far.”

 

[Hopper]

Charles Barkley on Presenting Sloan into the Hall-of-Fame:

“It is really one of the greatest honors: First of all, it’s one of the great phone calls that I ever got in my life. It’s a great honor. I was totally shocked and surprised by the phone call. I don’t know but I got to tell you it’s really cool for me. Somebody like Jerry Sloan: You know I was telling you I’ve been doing all these interviews and a guy says ‘Everybody respects and likes Jerry Sloan’.”

I guess Chuck didn't check in with you before makin that last statement, eh, S2? The fool!

 

[Hopper]

As far as Arroyo goes, I haven't really followed his career, but I remember seeing an article defining "the doghouse" as wherever Arroyo happened to be. But from Sloan to Larry Brown, to Van Gundy, et al, the coach was always the problem, I'm sure. Didn't Arroyo expressly apologize to Sloan years after he was dumped to the Pistons?

Arroyo wanted to incessantly whine to the press about how he didn't know why he wasn't playing more, all while refusing to talk to Sloan about the reasons. Some chumps see this kind of cowardly, manipulative, candyass behavior as Sloan's fault, but.....

 

[InGameStrategy]

Heh, S2, keep on truckin, with your "evidence," and all, eh?

Mo Williams on Sloan:

“Jerry taught me how to be a point guard.”

“To think versus rely simply on instincts . . . time and possession . . . teammates needing to be spoon-fed . . . not giving the ball to a big man on the break unless he has a free lane . . . creating space –separation — which is the object of the pick-and-roll, and then reading and reacting.”

“A lot of bad words come out of his mouth. But, if you do it right the next time, in his next breath, he’ll praise you just as heatedly. A lot of coaches don’t understand; they beat you down without picking you back up,”

He also said that the best coach he has ever played for on the professional level was, “Jerry Sloan – by far.”

Jerry Sloan can still be the best coach that Mo Williams ever played for and still be sufficiently defective to hinder the team from winning a title. For 20 years.

Besides, Mo Williams had a great attitude already (I remember seeing him being among the first off the bench to cheer teammates) and he has played for at least three coaches who have been fired :roll:. Coaches can be fired too quickly, but they are usually fired for a reason. It's not much of a compliment to Sloan to be compared to three coaches who lost their jobs.

Furthermore, it's not the well-behaved players that I'm criticizing Jerry for. It's the long chain of players that he has alienated or not fully developed. It appears that Sloan communicated with Mo Williams to Mo's satisfaction in the brief rookie year that he played in Utah (which makes using MW as an example all that much weaker).

You conveniently ignored the article that I posted before, so I'll repost another different link of it again.

Carlos Arroyo recently has spoken frequently about wanting to play more for the Jazz and about his frustration over not being told why he is not. . . . .
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/600104784/Sloan-offers-explanation-for-Arroyos-bench-duty.html

It would be hard for this article to express more clearly that there was a lack of communication from the coaching staff to Carlos Arroyo. Whether he's a hothead or not is irrelevant as to whether the optimal coaching practice is to actually tell players how to improve. It is a fundamental part of being a leading coach to manage egos and to communicate both encouragement and criticism (i.e., areas of improvement).

It's funny that with every post you make, I merely find, identify, or add more information to support my argument.

 

[Hopper]

It would be hard for this article to express more clearly that there was a lack of communication from the coaching staff to Carlos Arroyo.

Heh, it would be hard for any statement of yours to more clearly demonstrate your gullibility. Anything some whining, manipulative rebel says to a newspaperman for ulterior purposes MUST be true, eh? Arroyo truly had no clue as to why he wasn't starting, etc.? Yeah, right.

Player after player has said that's Sloan's door is always open if there's anything they have questions about. In the meantime, a coach has no duty to explain every substitution of every player at endless length. Just be ready to play when you're called. If the coaching staff thinks it is preferable to start Memo over Fess, and Fess thinks they're all wrong, he can prove it in practice, if it's true.

 

[Hopper]

Sloan: I'd be a little disappointed if he (Arroyo) was happy. But that's part of this business...He's in a frustrating situation, probably," Sloan said. "But the most important thing he can do, like any player, is be ready to play. If he feels uncomfortable and needs an explanation, then . . . I think (approaching Sloan) probably would be the most beneficial thing for him," Sloan added.

Why in the HELL would Arroyo even consider talking to Sloan about his status on the team when he can talk to newspapermen about his befuddlement 24/7? Why would Sloan even suggest that Arroyo should talk to him instead of the papers? What a fascist, eh!?

 

[InGameStrategy]

Heh, it would be hard for any statement of yours to more clearly demonstrate your gullibility. Anything some whining, manipulative rebel says to a newspaperman for ulterior purposes MUST be true, eh? Arroyo truly had no clue as to why he wasn't starting, etc.? Yeah, right.

You're changing the subject. I didn't deny that Arroyo was a "whining, manipulative rebel", which is more in the realm of opinion, and I didn't say that Arroyo should start. Unlike you, I was focusing one what a journalist stated as fact: that Arroyo had not been told why he wasn't starting. And my opinion is that coaches and business managers and teachers and parents and leaders alike should proactively communicate such information instead of leave them wondering.

Player after player has said that's Sloan's door is always open if there's anything they have questions about. In the meantime, a coach has no duty to explain every substitution of every player at endless length. Just be ready to play when you're called. If the coaching staff thinks it is preferable to start Memo over Fess, and Fess thinks they're all wrong, he can prove it in practice, if it's true.

Again, you're changing the argument. It's the coach's job to tell the players. The open-door policy should be for any clarifications--not for the initial communication. This is Leadership 101--not even Coaching 101. There is an abundant number of sources to support this, and some would argue that the coach--like a business manager, parent, etc.--is in a position of power, so the coach should be the one to be proactive about making sure that information is conveyed.
https://www.brianmac.co.uk/commun.htm

 

[InGameStrategy]

Sloan: I'd be a little disappointed if he (Arroyo) was happy. But that's part of this business...He's in a frustrating situation, probably," Sloan said. "But the most important thing he can do, like any player, is be ready to play. If he feels uncomfortable and needs an explanation, then . . . I think (approaching Sloan) probably would be the most beneficial thing for him," Sloan added.

Why in the HELL would Arroyo even consider talking to Sloan about his status on the team when he can talk to newspapermen about his befuddlement 24/7? Why would Sloan even suggest that Arroyo should talk to him instead of the papers? What a fascist, eh!?

Again, ideally Arroyo (and all players students and children and subordinates) would bring it upon themselves to talk to people in position in authority. But I hold the authority figure to a higher standard. That was Sloan's job. It's crazy to let Sloan off the hook when he, according to the article, went for days without telling Arroyo was doing wrong (or right).

And again, this is a pattern over multiple players that seems to be more pronounced with Sloan than with other coaches. And this poor communication by Sloan, along with poor in-game decisionmaking and overrated contribution to player development, are why I believe that Sloan should have been replaced years ago. Good news: he does go off on profanity-laced tirades anymore. Bad news: the in-game strategy isn't where it should be, and neither is the defense, which means that Sloan isn't communicating well--or enforcing it. Meanwhile, Alvin Gentry is.

 

[Hopper]

This is Leadership 101--not even Coaching 101. https://www.brianmac.co.uk/commun.htm

Did ya mean "Mollycoddlin, 101," mebbe? To listen you to, a coach should not even watch the game to see what's going on, he should instead spend his gametime sidlin up to every player who got substitued for and give a long, unsolicited explanation of exactly why he did what he did:

S2: You sit them down for a few plays at a time, not in silence until next game, when the player is replaced by another player. And you communicate immediately, tell them what they are doing wrong and hopefully also providing some positive encouragement also.

 

[Hopper]

It's crazy to let Sloan off the hook when he, according to the article, went for days without telling Arroyo was doing wrong (or right).

A newspaper merely reported what Arroyo claimed. Kinda like Larry Miller merely reported what AK claimed when he told Miller that he had been told his role in the offense was to simply stand in the corner and stay out of the way.

I don't know about Larry Miller, but mebbe you do have "sucker" written across your forehead in big letters, eh? Do you really think that Arroyo had recieved no instruction or feedback from Sloan or anyone else on the coaching staff?

Arroyo strikes me as the kind who could be told repeatedly what was expected of him, where he needed to improve, etc., and would still whine to a newspaperman that he had "no idea" why he wasn't playin more.

 

[Hopper]

If ya ax me, any coach who, irrespective of what other duties he had, undertook to go, hat in hand, to every player on the team and try to convince them that each and every decision he made he made was justifable and should be approved of by said player would be a laughing stock amongst his players.

 

[Hopper]

There's a story about John Wooden where a player comes to him and says: "Coach, I think I'm a better player than X." Wooden said: "I think you are, too."

You know, straight off the bat, that Wooden is incompetent, when a player doesn't know, up front, whether the coach think's he better than another player.

Then the player asked: "Then why don't you play me more, instead of him?"

[Can you BELIEVE that Wooden hadn't already "developed" this player?]

Wooden said: "I'm not the one who is limiting your playing time, you are."

[What!? Wooden thought the player had some responsibility for his lack of playing time? Didn't Wooden even realize that only the coach, not the player, decides who plays?]

The suggestion was that the player in question was not following the clear instructions given in practice, was not playing team ball, etc. Can you BELIEVE that Wooden hadn't, long before, went to the (better) player and BEGGED him to pay more attention and alter his selfish attitudes? That's all it would take, no doubt. Anyone can, upon simple request, completely change the character and habits of another person.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Did ya mean "Mollycoddlin, 101," mebbe? To listen you to, a coach should not even watch the game to see what's going on, he should instead spend his gametime sidlin up to every player who got substitued for and give a long, unsolicited explanation of exactly why he did what he did:

Your ridiculous persona is mildly amusing.

It takes about 10 seconds to say to Arroyo: "Carlos, I'm not starting you in the next game. You haven't been working the offense enough. Show me that you get your teammates involved better, and I'll consider starting you again." Short, sweet, firm, direct, and motivational. Sloan doesn't even have to do it during the game; it would be better to not do it during the game. And Arroyo was complaining about not being told for days, not that he wasn't told during the game.

 

[InGameStrategy]

A newspaper merely reported what Arroyo claimed. Kinda like Larry Miller merely reported what AK claimed when he told Miller that he had been told his role in the offense was to simply stand in the corner and stay out of the way.

I don't know about Larry Miller, but mebbe you do have "sucker" written across your forehead in big letters, eh? Do you really think that Arroyo had recieved no instruction or feedback from Sloan or anyone else on the coaching staff?

Arroyo strikes me as the kind who could be told repeatedly what was expected of him, where he needed to improve, etc., and would still whine to a newspaperman that he had "no idea" why he wasn't playin more.[/QUOTE]I guess that we could dispute the veracity of a reporter, but they usually have a process for fact checking. This type of fact doesn't seem controversial, and Sloan didn't deny it. Quite the contrary; he finally talked to Arroyo days later, implying that he hadn't said anything before.

 

[InGameStrategy]

If ya ax me, any coach who, irrespective of what other duties he had, undertook to go, hat in hand, to every player on the team and try to convince them that each and every decision he made he made was justifable and should be approved of by said player would be a laughing stock amongst his players.

Coaches don't tell players why they do things in order to justify their actions but rather so that players know what they need to do to improve, making the team better.

And NOT doing that is a fundamental flaw, IMHO, given that all leaders in any field should be good communicators. This should be self-evident.

And nobody is saying that Sloan needs to justify every little thing--or anything at all. But putting someone in or out of the starting lineup is a fairly significant thing, especially with egos involved, and warrants some communication. It should be regarded not only as good leadership and communication but also as an opportunity to teach and develop players. But Sloan has preferred to leave it up to anybody's guess evidently. It is not a good strategy in any field of work to assume that people will figure it out; such a strategy is inefficient at best. When you're dealing with millionaire twentysomethings, it can lead to poor results on the court and off. The point of coaches communicating is not justification: it's instruction.

 

[Hopper]

I hold the authority figure to a higher standard. That was Sloan's job. It's crazy to let Sloan off the hook when he, according to the article, went for days without telling Arroyo was doing wrong (or right).

Well, S2, I think it's your clear duty to the game of basketball to pack your bags IMMEDIATELY! Get on a plane, and get to John Wooden's funeral. Tell all of the Wooden disciples, admirers, and emulators who are bound to be there about this NOW!

 

[InGameStrategy]

Well, S2, I think it's your clear duty to the game of basketball to pack your bags IMMEDIATELY! Get on a plane, and get to John Wooden's funeral. Tell all of the Wooden disciples, admirers, and emulators who are bound to be there about this NOW!

I love how your continuing tangential examples, however entertaining, continue to bury your so-called argument.

No need for me to get on a plane; unlike Sloan, John Wooden knew the value of communication as a coach.

A coach is someone who can give correction without causing resentment. --John Wooden
https://www.quotedb.com/quotes/3766

Such as taking <10 seconds to tell a player--starter or scrub alike--why he's getting benched and how to get back on the court soon.

 

[Hopper]

Such as taking <10 seconds to tell a player--starter or scrub alike--why he's getting benched and how to get back on the court soon.

Well, S2, now ya done gone plumb hawgwild with your speculation and presumption about what Sloan duz and don't say. I have it on good information that Sloan rarely yanks a player from a game because he aint happy with them without kindly informing them that they have been playin like an effin c.

 

[Hopper]

A convo, overheard in the Best Buy parkin lot, years back:

Arroyo: Sloan told me I was playin like an effin c.

Tag: Yeah, he tells me that alla time, too. I tell him he don't *play* like an effin c, but that he simply is one, ya know?

Arroyo: I don't even know what he means by that.

Tag: Why doncha go ax him?

Arroyo: Are you kiddin!? I'm goin down to the Trib and talk to my homeboy, the beat writer, about this, that's what Imma gunna do!