Was Fes' Play Last Night An Aberration?

[InGameStrategy]

S2, I'm not trying to respond to your claims, just like you don't respond to my posts or questions, except on a very selective basis. You simply re-iterate your cliams, ad infinitum, and ignore any counter argument.

Question, though. How is it possible for Fess to be a better free throw shooter and display better moves in the block with "experience" when he aint never got no experience?

He did have in-game experience this summer--overseas. And it has been confirmed by an inside source that he was making free throws in practice, so your peripheral argument about free throws would point to giving him more playing time, not less. Fesenko didn't even shoot 100 free throws in games for the ENTIRE YEAR. That's less than two free throws per game played, and far less than two free throw attempts per available game.

It is counterproductive to completely shut off a player's playing time. If you want to penalize a player for "jackpotting," then give him 8 to 10 MPG instead of 10 to 15 MPG. But don't DNP for games on end. Whatever Fes was or was not doing in practice couldn't have warranted that. Again, the reason to play him is so that you get a player by the middle of last season who starts making free throws instead of throwing him into the fire against two of the top teams in the NBA and then expect him to hit shots under pressure.

The reason that I repeat things to you is that you conveniently ignore what doesn't fit your argument.

 

[InGameStrategy]

P.S. It's disingenuous for you to claim, Hopper, that I'm not addressing your claims when I am dissecting them surgically.

 

[Hopper]

It's as simple as this: Sloan has some metric for what you have to do in order to earn playing time. "Earn" here is the operative word.

It's obvious that Fes was too much of a goofball/didn't take things seriously/[whatever] to earn playing time in Sloan's offense.

Whether or not Fes "deserves" playing time is irrelevant because according to Sloan's metric, Fes did not earn it.

I'm fairly sure Fes knew that practicing hard/taking things seriously is a prerequisite for earning playing time. The blame is squarely on him for not molding himself to Sloan...rather than the blame being on Sloan for not molding to Fes.

Sloan, on princiiple, refuses to teach them "how to lose" by handing out playin time regardless of effort, or so he says. Guys like S2 don't care about such things. Guys like S2 would advocate scrapping the entire system if they got a player like Tracy McGrady or Marshmello in favor of a plan to just give the ball to (insert name of "superstar" who gives half-assed effort) and let him operate. The rest of you just be ready to rebound. Discipline and effort be damned if you think a player is "good."

As I've related before, Sloan has told the story about how, one year, the players were all sayin they wanted less structure and more opportunity to freelance. Sloan said, if that's what you really want, that's what we'll do.

After about 10 or 15 games of this, the Jazz were, like, 5-10. Stockton came to Sloan and complained that the strategy wasn't winning games.

Sloan said: "Whoever said anything about winning? That's not why we're playin, is it? Isn't the point simply to go out, have fun, not strain yourself, show-off your one-on-one skills to the crowd, collect a paycheck, go home, and come back tomorrow and do the same thing all over again? Isn't that what we want?"

By popular demand (or if not "popular," then by demand of the leadership players who put winning first) the team re-implemented the reliable old "boring" system, which is based upon a lot of effort, brusing picks, and strict discipline but which gives a better chance of winning.

 

[Hopper]

He did have in-game experience this summer--overseas.

Well, which is it, S2? Now you can "develop" in overseas games? Can you also develop in college games, ya figure? Can you "develop" in high school games? Can you "develop" in practice and intrasquad games? I thought it was ONLY NBA games that permitted development and improvement, eh? Next thing I know, you'll be sayin it's possible to improve by spendin 4-5 hours in the gym all by your lonesome.

If you can develop elsewhere, and aint NBA ready, then maybe you should be where you can develop into a NBA quality player, rather than riding an NBA bench due to lack of development.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Sloan, on princiiple, refuses to teach them "how to lose" by handing out playin time regardless of effort, or so he says. Guys like S2 don't care about such things.

Yes I do care. If anything, Sloan taught Okur "how to lose" by letting him get away with playing bad defense frequently and not benching him for it. So unfortunately your claim doesn't carry.

Guys like S2 would advocate scrapping the entire system if they got a player like Tracy McGrady or Marshmello in favor of a plan to just give the ball to (insert name of "superstar" who gives half-assed effort) and let him operate. The rest of you just be ready to rebound. Discipline and effort be damned if you think a player is "good."

This is a gross hyperbole that has nothing to do with the topic, and on the court, Fesenko has been a team player and has been putting forth good effort. Not ideal effort, but good effort.

As I've related before, Sloan has told the story about how, one year, the players were all sayin they wanted less structure and more opportunity to freelance. Sloan said, if that's what you really want, that's what we'll do.

This is not particularly relevant to the Fesenko topic because I don't think that Fes ever indicated--in word or in deed--that he thought that the Jazz's offense or defense should be less structured.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Hopper, you keep using game performance ("freelancing") to justify using practice as a primary criterion for playing time. That's why practice is a less effective measure of in-game performance then, well, in-game performance.

 

[Hopper]

As I recall, Fess hardly played a lick for the russian team a year or two back and was basically thrown off the team, wasn't he? Sloan musta been coachin there too.

 

[InGameStrategy]

Well, which is it, S2? Now you can "develop" in overseas games? Can you also develop in college games, ya figure? Can you "develop" in high school games? Can you "develop" in practice and intrasquad games? I thought it was ONLY NBA games that permitted development and improvement, eh? Next thing I know, you'll be sayin it's possible to improve by spendin 4-5 hours in the gym all by your lonesome.

OK, I'll retract this argument for a stronger one that is more consistent with what I have been saying all along.

His FT% is only modestly up from where it was in two of the four preseasons that he's played in; in the other one, he shot only 6 FTs anyway. So your claim (if that is your claim) that he has vastly improved from last season to now is illusory, just like the claim that he has lost a lot of weight, when it really was only less than 10 pounds.

In other words, he's just continuing along the same trajectory that giving him experience would've provided anyway. Giving him more PT would've accelerated it. His FG% is 47%, which is on the low end of OK for a center and really diffuses any silly claim that he is freelancing in games--at least offensively. He might not know where he should be all the time, but he's not jacking up shots.

New post = new data, new evidence.

 

[chemdude1232]

I think what's going wrong here is that we are looking to assign blame solely on one person: Sloan for being an obstinate jackass and not developing Fes, or Fes for not putting forth the effort to earn his playing time.

InGame, really I hope you see that the fault does not rest entirely on Sloan's shoulders as (correct me if I'm wrong) you seem to indicate. And no, the blame is not entirely on Fes' shoulders either (in the sense that, hey, he's a body and could give us 5 solid - if foul-prone - minutes.

In my eyes, the truth is that the majority of "blame" rests on the issue that Fes is not doing what he knows will get him playing time, i.e., working his tail off. Again, I'll reiterate: if he knows that Sloan requires hard work (in practice) to merit playing time, there is surely some fault of his when he doesn't accede to Sloan's conditions.

 

[InGameStrategy]

I retract my retraction; the overseas league is only so-so in-game experience, but he does seem to feel more comfortable, and somewhere along the way he learned a couple of sweet spin moves. What he does seem have is a little more confidence in the system, which is more representative of experience than practice.

 

[Hopper]

The Big “Fess” Is A Big Mess

By Aron Phillips

Kyrylo Fesenko

Let’s be frank. Utah’s Kyrylo Fesenko (pronounced Kuh-rill Feh-sink-o) hasn’t done much in his first three years in the NBA. In fact, “Fess” has only played a total of 634 minutes and appeared in 79 games with career averages of 2.4 points and 1.9 rebounds per game. With training camp about to start, the restricted free agent has yet to sign a $1.1 million qualifying offer and is looking to ink at least a two-year deal. But all that could change very soon....

According to the Salt Lake Tribune’s Brian T. Smith, the Rockets and two other Western Conference teams have shown recent interest in Fesenko.... Personally, I doubt the Rockets would invest that type of money in such a project, but if they don’t want the Jazz to match the offer, they might have to spend a little extra dough."

The opinion of an outsider (from dimemag), eh?

I wonder if realizing that other teams didn't see him as being worth much did anything to motivate Fess.

 

[Hopper]

"August 27th, 2009 by Salt City Hoops
This summer has been a bust for Kyrylo Fesenko by almost any measure. It’s all been widely documented: Skipping the Jazz summer league to play with the Ukrainian National Team and then playing poorly and eventually having some kind of run-in with the coach that led to Fesenko leaving the team early. There were even rumors that the final straw was leaving the bench to take a smoke during a game."

All on account of Sloan, no doubt.