Racism and privilege

[♪alt13]

That's not even the first time I've read that tired justification today. I don't need to "make" victims. The victims exist, and continue to be victimized.

You are attacking white people for not facing the same hardships. You want people to feel guilty just for being white. You have no call to action. You are making victims. You make a victim out of a child when you make it sound like his/her future is hopeless.

Thank you for whitesplaining King to me. After all, I must obviously see him as a prophet of some sort, whose every word (as interpreted by you) should be followed without question.

I see MLK jr. as one of the greatest figures in world history(I really don't give a **** how you see him) I don't have to treat him as a messiah and worship his word to appreciate his example. When talking about race why is bringing up MLK jr. not appropriate.

The word you are looking for is "appropriation".

cool bro.

You make it sound like you can't tell there is a color in between black and white, when in fact there is a multidimensional layout. It makes sense that your depiction of society would metaphorically mirror its divisions.
You ignore everything I have said in regards to inequality and injustice in America. You would rather blame me than work with me to make things better. Have fun with that

.

 

[♪alt13]

I'm acting like a racist? That's quite a bold statement. Who or what am I being racist against?

Maybe I am not being clear here. My posts, thus far, have just been in regards to defined terms. Nothing more, nothing less. I will wholeheartedly agree with you that there are some minorities that function as constant victims in this world. I do think it's a small majority. I think most folks regardless of race function in a positive manner in their communities. I will say, though, that minorities are more likely to experience issues stemming from race. To state otherwise would be untruthful.

It reminds me of this article I read a few years back:

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/us/01race.html

It's the reality. Those folks in that article have flown right, have made all the right decisions in life, have educated themselves but their skin color is still an impediment. Again, it's the reality.

I agree with every word you wrote. I apologize if I lumped you in with one Brow, unfairly. Liberal establishment racism is what I was referring to. This type of racism replaces the feeling of disgust or hatred that one would find in good old fashioned racism and replaces it with pity. The feeling of superiority remains and differential treatment persists.

 

[moevillini]

somehow these discussions make me think of Joni Mitchell's song "The Circle Game" - if you haven't heard it in a while you should give it a listen.

And skimming through the last couple pages of posts, I think I agree most closely with what viny's saying

 

[One Brow]

Around and around we go.

Perhaps if we both agreed to use the terms in the same way they are used by the professionals who study the issue, that would stop.

 

[One Brow]

You are attacking white people for not facing the same hardships. You want people to feel guilty just for being white. You have no call to action. You are making victims. You make a victim out of a child when you make it sound like his/her future is hopeless.

I'm urging all people to recognize that they are products of their culture, that they share in the cognitive shortcuts and assumptions passed onto them by the culture, and that simply ignoring/denying the existence of these shortcuts means they perpetuate the shortcuts, even if they do not intend to do so. Intent is not relevant, behavior is. In particular, guilt is meaningless. inless it motivates change.

I defy you to pull out one sentece from the past 17 pages where I attacked, or even insulted, any other poster.

You are the one who equates the unequal playing field with "hopeless". There will always be indivuiduals who can clear the bar, even when it is set higher for them. Discrimintion against blacks in employment, STEM disciplines, etc. doesn't mean no blacks are employed nor that none work it STEM. It means that some of them are turned away, or accept lesser positions and opportunities. Denying this sort of victimization does not make it go away.

I see MLK jr. as one of the greatest figures in world history(I really don't give a **** how you see him) I don't have to treat him as a messiah and worship his word to appreciate his example. When talking about race why is bringing up MLK jr. not appropriate.

My recommendation is that when you bring King up, you need to keep in mind that you have a much smaller share in the experiences that informed King than many others have, and so your understanding of King is lacking in that regard. I have no problem with you saying what King inspires in you. However, you were trying to tell me what King meant as a corrective to my view. There are a few posters in here that seem knowledgeable enough that I would take such a corrective seriously. You're not one of them. You obviously lack the experiences and just as obviously have not attempted any serious study of the issue.

You ignore everything I have said in regards to inequality and injustice in America. You would rather blame me than work with me to make things better. Have fun with that

I have not ignored what you say, but I take it as seriously as I do the notion that the earth is flat and supported on the back of a turtle. Before I can work with you to make things better, you have to be able to see what's wrong. Why should I work with you on solutions when you don't even see the real problem?

 

[One Brow]

I agree with every word you wrote. I apologize if I lumped you in with one Brow, unfairly.

It's odd how you can agree with VinylOne and disagree with me, when we are basically saying the same thing, perhaps with a slightly different emphasis.

 

[Stoked]

It's odd how you can agree with VinylOne and disagree with me, when we are basically saying the same thing, perhaps with a slightly different emphasis.

Then perhaps you should compare the differences in your approach and language use.

 

[babe]

OB says "Intent is not relevant, Behavior is".

While I agree that government is properly empowered to regulate "behavior" or actions that impose some impediment on the rights and liberties of citizens, if what OB says is true we don't actually need the word "racism" in specifying which behaviors are injurious to others in either their person, their possessions, or their rights.

If we go on prattling about "racism" and attaching to that word the intent to treat some class of persons injuriously, we can hardly do so without applying that label to another class of persons and attaching a hate label, or maybe even criminalizing them for being what they are. . . . based on their intentions.

I couldn't think of a more backward way of looking at the issue. Just trying to understand the "thinking" that goes into that. . . . .

 

[LogGrad98]

I'm urging all people to recognize that they are products of their culture, that they share in the cognitive shortcuts and assumptions passed onto them by the culture, and that simply ignoring/denying the existence of these shortcuts means they perpetuate the shortcuts, even if they do not intend to do so. Intent is not relevant, behavior is. In particular, guilt is meaningless. inless it motivates change.

You are the one who equates the unequal playing field with "hopeless". There will always be indivuiduals who can clear the bar, even when it is set higher for them. Discrimintion against blacks in employment, STEM disciplines, etc. doesn't mean no blacks are employed nor that none work it STEM. It means that some of them are turned away, or accept lesser positions and opportunities. Denying this sort of victimization does not make it go away.

What does make it go away? You have done a lot of pontificating about the problem, and how no one approaches it correctly. People say that when we no longer recognize race it will show the problem is improving, you say it means we are just ignoring it. People say it starts with the individual, you say that it doesn't. You have done a lot of defining and cutting down other viewpoints as being wrong or incomplete, yet have put forth nothing in terms of solutions. Yes, there is a problem. WHAT DO WE ALL HAVE TO DO TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?

What is the next goal. Spazz pointed out an idealized goal you said was wrong to focus on, yet when asked what the in-between goals are you provide nothing. What exactly are you trying to get at in this thread? Is it sufficient to you to get us all to acknowledge that we are all privileged because we might be white? Ok, we are privileged. You say that " some of them are turned away, or accept lesser positions and opportunities", does that mean to be no longer racists that no one can ever be turned away or accept a lesser position? I have taken a nearly 30% reduction in my pay, and a "lesser" position due to the economy and a major lay-off nearly 5 years ago now. What does that say?

Is it possible some people of color may not be as qualified as some white people, or at least within a given candidate pool, and therefore they do not get chosen? I am not asking you to pontificate about how we are ignoring the problem and all the crap you have been saying through the whole thread, but please just answer the question. Is it POSSIBLE that maybe SOMETIMES the reason someone has to accept a lower position is that they are not as qualified as some other candidate? Or does that idea that maybe qualifications do not rely on race mean that I am just perpetuating the white privilege and somehow ignoring the problem yet again?

If I post a position for a supervisor (which I have open in my facility right now), and I get 50 applicants (I am close to 30 now), and of them 5 are of color, and the rest are white, wouldn't logic and probability dictate that the likelihood of one of the 5 of color being more qualified than all of the other 45 white people is not very high? The probability from the numbers alone would say that I am more likely to find the most highly qualified candidate among the group with the most applicants, considering they all know the parameters of the position and share some level of commonality in their backgrounds or they wouldn't have applied. But if I pick the person I think is most highly qualified, and he happens to be white (and male even), then I am really being biased due to race yet again due to the "cognitive shortcuts and assumptions" that I cannot be free of since I am a "product of my culture".

You are talking in circles and getting no where. So make it simple:

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

 

[moevillini]

...Yes, there is a problem. WHAT DO WE ALL HAVE TO DO TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?...



...You are talking in circles and getting no where. So make it simple:

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

TRY THIS:

Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence.
As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit.
If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and bitter; for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.
Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals; and everywhere life is full of heroism.
Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection.
Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass.
Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.
Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune.
But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.
Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.
“”
Max Ehrmann, "Desiderata"


words to live by

 

[franklin]

What does make it go away? You have done a lot of pontificating about the problem, and how no one approaches it correctly. People say that when we no longer recognize race it will show the problem is improving, you say it means we are just ignoring it. People say it starts with the individual, you say that it doesn't. You have done a lot of defining and cutting down other viewpoints as being wrong or incomplete, yet have put forth nothing in terms of solutions. Yes, there is a problem. WHAT DO WE ALL HAVE TO DO TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM?

What is the next goal. Spazz pointed out an idealized goal you said was wrong to focus on, yet when asked what the in-between goals are you provide nothing. What exactly are you trying to get at in this thread? Is it sufficient to you to get us all to acknowledge that we are all privileged because we might be white? Ok, we are privileged. You say that " some of them are turned away, or accept lesser positions and opportunities", does that mean to be no longer racists that no one can ever be turned away or accept a lesser position? I have taken a nearly 30% reduction in my pay, and a "lesser" position due to the economy and a major lay-off nearly 5 years ago now. What does that say?

Is it possible some people of color may not be as qualified as some white people, or at least within a given candidate pool, and therefore they do not get chosen? I am not asking you to pontificate about how we are ignoring the problem and all the crap you have been saying through the whole thread, but please just answer the question. Is it POSSIBLE that maybe SOMETIMES the reason someone has to accept a lower position is that they are not as qualified as some other candidate? Or does that idea that maybe qualifications do not rely on race mean that I am just perpetuating the white privilege and somehow ignoring the problem yet again?

If I post a position for a supervisor (which I have open in my facility right now), and I get 50 applicants (I am close to 30 now), and of them 5 are of color, and the rest are white, wouldn't logic and probability dictate that the likelihood of one of the 5 of color being more qualified than all of the other 45 white people is not very high? The probability from the numbers alone would say that I am more likely to find the most highly qualified candidate among the group with the most applicants, considering they all know the parameters of the position and share some level of commonality in their backgrounds or they wouldn't have applied. But if I pick the person I think is most highly qualified, and he happens to be white (and male even), then I am really being biased due to race yet again due to the "cognitive shortcuts and assumptions" that I cannot be free of since I am a "product of my culture".

You are talking in circles and getting no where. So make it simple:

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

The black population assimilating into white culture is the easiest answer. I have a hard time blaming people for wanting to be around those they are comfortable with. Cultural differences aren't limited to skin color. For example, I wouldn't hire someone with prison mentality who's always in fight mode every time someone "disrespects" him due to some contorted set of rules he lived by behind bars and inside biker bars.

But since that's not a reasonable or fair expectation...

 

[LogGrad98]

The black population assimilating into white culture is the easiest answer. I have a hard time blaming people for wanting to be around those they are comfortable with. Cultural differences aren't limited to skin color. For example, I wouldn't hire someone with prison mentality who's always in fight mode every time someone "disrespects" him due to some contorted set of rules he lived by behind bars and inside biker bars.

But since that's not a reasonable or fair expectation...

But see this all ties back to white privilege. The guy wouldn't have been in that situation if it wasn't for profiling, so we created this guy, so we owe him the leeway to get his life going again, and we are required to accept his biker/gang "culture" as part of diversity so we do not perpetuate the victimization that was the ultimate cause of this person's getting involved in prison life to begin with.


Hmm, not sure I got that right. I tired to re-word some of the rhetoric in that context. Was that about right?






Btw did anyone notice that franklin never identified his example of a biker person as being black? I went that way to see how many catch it and jump on the merry-go-round again.





Or is it just an example of the perpetuation of racism forced on my by the culture I grew up in, which means I am destined to be racist no matter how much I try to "pretend" I'm not, and this instance is really just a reflection of our predisposition of white privilege which we can never escape?