when will we hear news of Kanter ?

[GVC]

I wish it were that simple, but in the past Corbin has not shown a tendency to base playing time on performance. How else to explain the amount of playing time given to Bell, Howard, Foye (relative to Hayward who was a superior player by almost all metrics), and Marvin last year? It strikes me as hypocritical now to be saying that playing time is based on performance where it comes to the young players we need to develop when this standard has not been applied to veterans with the same consistency.

While I agree that playing should should, to a degree be based on performance, this cannot be the only, or even most important standard, used this year, particularly given that the objectives this year are to develop the youth and improve our position in the draft. Kanter should be given a consistent more or less 25 minutes a night. I'm confident that we'll see his performance improve over the course of the season, but this current policy of yanking him around and giving him spot minutes (while ruining his confidence) is inconsistent with the objectives for this season.

I used the word "execute" intentionally. Foye and Bell had their limitations, but (for the most part) played within those limitations, executing the offensive/defensive plan. Corbin wasn't the coach when Howard was in Utah. Gordo has averaged 31 minutes per game over the last 2+ seasons.

Corbin, like many coaches, increases a young player's role and minutes as he effectively uses those minutes within the confines of that given role. Kanter looks overwhelmed half the time he's out there. He's not ready for more minutes or an increased role.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

I used the word "execute" intentionally. Foye and Bell had their limitations, but (for the most part) played within those limitations, executing the offensive/defensive plan. Corbin wasn't the coach when Howard was in Utah. Gordo has averaged 31 minutes per game over the last 2+ seasons.

Corbin, like many coaches, increases a young player's role and minutes as he effectively uses those minutes within the confines of that given role. Kanter looks overwhelmed half the time he's out there. He's not ready for more minutes or an increased role.

Actually, if I remember correctly, Corbin was the coach when Howard was here, which was two season ago, the same season he played Bell starter minutes despite almost no visible production.

Hayward, I recall, played 29.3 minutes last year, less than the 30.6 he played the year before. Foye, who was less productive in almost all areas to Hayward, played 27.4 minutes, and took many of Haywards minutes. Haywards minutes actually dropped last year even though his performance improved almost across the board.

I disagree. I think Kanter is ready for more minutes, and that he will improve as a result. If Marvin and Jefferson are not part of the long-term Jazz plans, then they should not be getting so much playing time over Kanter, who Is (or may yet be) in the Jazz long term plans. Winning is about 3rd-4th priority this year.

 

[juandiego]

He's 21... com'mon guys...

 

[GVC]

Actually, if I remember correctly, Corbin was the coach when Howard was here, which was two season ago, the same season he played Bell starter minutes despite almost no visible production.

My bad. Dude played 23 minutes per game though, less than Hayward.

Hayward, I recall, played 29.3 minutes last year, less than the 30.6 he played the year before. Foye, who was less productive in almost all areas to Hayward, played 27.4 minutes, and took many of Haywards minutes. Haywards minutes actually dropped last year even though his performance improved almost across the board.

Hayward played plenty of minutes last season, both as a starter (early and late) and as the leader of the young bench unit, which I think was likely good for his development. He got those minutes because he had shown an ability and willingness to play productively within the role he was assigned. I don't see his 30 minutes per game as a problem, regardless of who else was getting minutes.

I disagree. I think Kanter is ready for more minutes, and that he will improve as a result. If Marvin and Jefferson are not part of the long-term Jazz plans, then they should not be getting so much playing time over Kanter, who Is (or may yet be) in the Jazz long term plans. Winning is about 3rd-4th priority this year.

So...overwhelming players with too many minutes and too large a role before they're ready, potentially stunting development and creating bad habits, is priority number 1?

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

As a general remark related to this topic, we really can't afford to use half measures this year. If this year is really about developing the youth and LT rebuilding, then we need to be 100% invested in this objective. We've tried the blended approach the previous two years, and it didn't work. The ONLY reason to given veterans who do not figure in the Jazz LT plans heavy rotational minutes is IF Corbin is worried about his job if he doesn't win, and if this is the case, then either the FO has to give Corbin a clear set of expectations or it has to fire Corbin and put somebody in his place who understands the objective and is willing to be an instrument to fulfill it.

The worst of all possible outcomes this year is to let ST objectives conflict with the LT ones, in which case, I'm pretty certain we'll achieve neither.

 

[franklin]

I wish it were that simple, but in the past Corbin has not shown a tendency to base playing time on performance. How else to explain the amount of playing time given to Bell, Howard, Foye (relative to Hayward who was a superior player by almost all metrics), and Marvin last year? It strikes me as hypocritical now to be saying that playing time is based on performance where it comes to the young players we need to develop when this standard has not been applied to veterans with the same consistency.

While I agree that playing should should, to a degree be based on performance, this cannot be the only, or even most important standard, used this year, particularly given that the objectives this year are to develop the youth and improve our position in the draft. Kanter should be given a consistent more or less 25 minutes a night. I'm confident that we'll see his performance improve over the course of the season, but this current policy of yanking him around and giving him spot minutes (while ruining his confidence) is inconsistent with the objectives for this season.

Why would anyone need to explain good coaching decisions?

Actually, if I remember correctly, Corbin was the coach when Howard was here, which was two season ago, the same season he played Bell starter minutes despite almost no visible production.

Hayward, I recall, played 29.3 minutes last year, less than the 30.6 he played the year before. Foye, who was less productive in almost all areas to Hayward, played 27.4 minutes, and took many of Haywards minutes. Haywards minutes actually dropped last year even though his performance improved almost across the board. This argument doesn't stand up to the facts. Foye was a shooting guard having a career shooting year from three and fit well. Hayward struggled a ton early on and played 34 minutes post-All Star when he was the hot hand.

I disagree. I think Kanter is ready for more minutes, and that he will improve as a result. If Marvin and Jefferson are not part of the long-term Jazz plans, then they should not be getting so much playing time over Kanter, who Is (or may yet be) in the Jazz long term plans. Winning is about 3rd-4th priority this year.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

So...overwhelming players with too many minutes and too large a role before they're ready, potentially stunting development and creating bad habits, is priority number 1?

I'm pretty certain that's not what I said or what I intended to say. But if it helps you create your straw man argument, then go for it.

 

[zbone]

Last week or so when I read GVC posting about Kanter I feel an urge to bitch slap him.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

"This argument doesn't stand up to the facts. Foye was a shooting guard having a career shooting year from three and fit well. Hayward struggled a ton early on and played 34 minutes post-All Star when he was the hot hand."

Three point shooting was about all Foye contributed. He sure as hell didn't assist or rebound or really do much else. If I remember correctly, the +/- when Foye was on the floor was pretty bad, and nearly all of the worst lineup configurations included Foye. Foye was/is a one-dimensional role player, not a starter who merited the heavy rotational minutes and taking time away from someone believed at the time to be a future franchise cornerstone and who was substantially better than Foye in almost all aspects, with possible exception of 3 point shooting.

 

[GVC]

I'm pretty certain that's not what I said or what I intended to say. But if it helps you create your straw man argument, then go for it.

It's my argument, not yours. Do you not think it's possible that a young player can be given too much PT and responsibility too soon?

 

[Ben10]

While I agree that playing should should, to a degree be based on performance, this cannot be the only, or even most important standard, used this year, particularly given that the objectives this year are to develop the youth and improve our position in the draft. Kanter should be given a consistent more or less 25 minutes a night. I'm confident that we'll see his performance improve over the course of the season, but this current policy of yanking him around and giving him spot minutes (while ruining his confidence) is inconsistent with the objectives for this season.

I'm sorry but I completely disagree with this. First off Kanter has been given a roll, he isn't getting spot minutes or being jerked around. He is the back up C to Favors. He is going to get between 12 and 20 minutes every night depending on his performance. If anyone thinks Kanter has deserved any more minutes than he has been getting the last 10 games then they aren't watching the game. He has been terrible. He can't defend, He isn't rebounding, He slows down any ball movement with his slow post moves and is missing almost all his mid range shots.

So what your saying is as a coach you just play him 25 minutes no matter what? Just because of development? There isn't a coach in the NBA that would do that with a player playing as poorly as Kanter is right now. What does this tell your other players who are trying to play to win games? How is this teaching the rest of the team to complete? So your sacrificing being completitive just because you think you have to give a player minutes?

When Kanter pulls his head out and starts playing like a real post player should on BOTH ends of the court. Then and only then should he be getting 25-30 minutes a game.

 

[franklin]

"This argument doesn't stand up to the facts. Foye was a shooting guard having a career shooting year from three and fit well. Hayward struggled a ton early on and played 34 minutes post-All Star when he was the hot hand."

Three point shooting was about all Foye contributed. He sure as hell didn't assist or rebound or really do much else. If I remember correctly, the +/- when Foye was on the floor was pretty bad, and nearly all of the worst lineup configurations included Foye. Foye was/is a one-dimensional role player, not a starter who merited the heavy rotational minutes and taking time away from someone believed at the time to be a future franchise cornerstone and who was substantially better than Foye in almost all aspects, with possible exception of 3 point shooting.

I get what you're saying, but again, Hayward has been given plenty minutes his first 3 seasons and rightly so. Complaining about Foye costing him more than 34 minutes doesn't work me up.

 

[zbone]

I'm sorry but I completely disagree with this. First off Kanter has been given a roll, he isn't getting spot minutes or being jerked around. He is the back up C to Favors. He is going to get between 12 and 20 minutes every night depending on his performance. If anyone thinks Kanter has deserved any more minutes than he has been getting the last 10 games then they aren't watching the game. He has been terrible. He can't defend, He isn't rebounding, He slows down any ball movement with his slow post moves and is missing almost all his mid range shots.

So what your saying is as a coach you just play him 25 minutes no matter what? Just because of development? There isn't a coach in the NBA that would do that with a player playing as poorly as Kanter is right now. What does this tell your other players who are trying to play to win games? How is this teaching the rest of the team to complete? So your sacrificing being completitive just because you think you have to give a player minutes?

When Kanter pulls his head out and starts playing like a real post player should on BOTH ends of the court. Then and only then should he be getting 25-30 minutes a game.

This is ********.
Out of his first 14 games before Kanter got benched he did not deliver or had bad games only on 4 occasions. The rest is 50/50 mixture of great and decent performances stat wise.
On defense his rotations were poor but just as almost everyone's else. If you make Kanter on pick and rolls show 6 ft above three point line you are asking for trouble. Man to man he was indeed bullied but you can blame loss of muscles over the offseason.

The most logical thing to do was tweaking defensive schemes to cover his lack of agility. On offensive the ball stops in his hands because he has no one to pass FFS more often than not! It's Corfense what makes Kanter look like a ball hog. Al at least had someone to kick the ball out. Now I recall only Burks getting himself open.

Instead of trying to figure out what works best for Kanter Corbin chose fool's gold in W's now with Marvin as stretch four. After he got benched he indeed looks like crap but there was absolutely no reason for him to be benched. He is a 21 year old treated by a clueless coach as if he is a rookie on a winning team.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

It's my argument, not yours. Do you not think it's possible that a young player can be given too much PT and responsibility too soon?

Yes, absolutely I believe this. I can accept this argument for Kanter during his first two years, but not this year. The goals this year are quite different than in year's past: developing young talents and improving our 2014 draft position. Playing Kanter regular minutes in the range of 30 minutes give or take is FULLY consistent with these objectives. Playing Marvin and Jefferson starter minutes IS NOT consistent with these objectives, IF they do not figure in the Jazz long term plans. I have no problem with adjusting Kanter's in-game playing time based on performance, but on average, he needs to be getting reasonably heavy minutes. As I've said, half measures this year will accomplish neither of the above goals; we need to establish what our goals are these year and then go all in. Winning is not, and should not, be the priority this year.

 

[Mission Accomplished]

YOU have to be fooling yourselves if you think that Favors has earned playing time or even Hayward. If Alec or Kanter struggle just like those other two the situation is changed they have to earn their minutes. But, the difference is there is some type of bias going on that gives those two some sort of birth right. Personally I'm not really wowed by Hayward or Favors they haven't earned their minutes either.

 

[Diamond77]

Evans is executing much better than Enes right now. When Enes shows he can do the things that are being asked of him, he'll probably get more minutes. It's that simple.

I see how well is executing your pet Evans tonight...but he is however playing more than Kanter!

 

[Fishsticks]

YOU have to be fooling yourselves if you think that Favors has earned playing time or even Hayward. If Alec or Kanter struggle just like those other two the situation is changed they have to earn their minutes. But, the difference is there is some type of bias going on that gives those two some sort of birth right. Personally I'm not really wowed by Hayward or Favors they haven't earned their minutes either.

Just chiming in to tell you that you are a ****ing idiot

 

[fishonjazz]

So...overwhelming players with too many minutes and too large a role before they're ready, potentially stunting development and creating bad habits, is priority number 1?

You are wrong on this one gvc.

 

[fishonjazz]

Last week or so when I read GVC posting about Kanter I feel an urge to bitch slap him.

This

 

[fishonjazz]

I get what you're saying, but again, Hayward has been given plenty minutes his first 3 seasons and rightly so. Complaining about Foye costing him more than 34 minutes doesn't work me up.

Ya burks should have been getting dem randy foye minutes