You make interesting points, but at this point there is nothing you can say to convince me that giving Jefferson or Williams more than 20 minutes a game is in the best interest of the Jazz. Kanter and Burks have both been beasting lately and deserve more minutes than they are receiving. I'd like to see all the young core guys getting 35 minutes a game. If the young guys are getting that much time and we win I will be happy. I will at least know that we have the talent to win next year and beyond. If they don't win we get a better pick.
Dennis Lindsey feels he owes Richard Jefferson a lot
- Thread starter franklin
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You make interesting points, but at this point there is nothing you can say to convince me that giving Jefferson or Williams more than 20 minutes a game is in the best interest of the Jazz. Kanter and Burks have both been beasting lately and deserve more minutes than they are receiving. I'd like to see all the young core guys getting 35 minutes a game. If the young guys are getting that much time and we win I will be happy. I will at least know that we have the talent to win next year and beyond. If they don't win we get a better pick.
gregbroncs
Well-Known Member
He's rewarding him with less minutes than a player you just admitted he's better than. Isn't that my whole argument against Corbin? That he does not play the better players if they are younger.
GVC
Well-Known Member
There are only 31 players in the entire NBA who average 35+ minutes per game. Having 5 such players on a single team is incredibly unrealistic.
Then why get involved in a discussion?
GVC
Well-Known Member
I have used "stats" in this and other threads on similar topics. Unfortunately, there aren't appropriate stats (that allow for something approaching even half baked counterfactual analysis) for many of my arguments.
1. Jefferson is shooting 42% from 3, being used as a spot-up shooter, complementing Trey and Gordo in the starting lineup. His eFG% on catch and shoot opportunities is .568 (slightly above the median among players with 3.5+ catch and shoot attempts per game). The counterargument is that Alec has been even better on catch and shoots, although I agree that that Alec should be playing more and RJ less.
2. Currently, the only other viable option on the wing is Marvin. Moving Marvin to the 3 forces Kanter and Favors to play together more. Team performance when Favors and Kanter play together has been an unmitigated disaster, including when the two share the court with Trey (-18.8 per 48, as previously stated). Yes, RJ's +/- is second worst among Jazz regulars. Enes's is worse.
3. It's hard to evaluate how much better/worse the team would be with Gordo playing more minutes at the 3, as he's played the bulk of his minutes at the 2 (this applies to defense, which is notoriously difficult to measure). If I had all the lineup data, including opponents and game situation/score, for Gordo/Alec and Gordo/RJ, maybe we could make a rough evaluation. I don't though.
4. How does one measure development based on how simple the coach makes players' roles?
I've stated repeatedly and clearly that Burks is the better player and will take more minutes from RJ. I don't know what you're even arguing at this point. Seems like you're taking issue with early season minute consumption and justifying your hate with full season averages???
Also, Jefferson is the statistically better offensive player by ORTG, even in DRTG despite your claim to the opposite, a much better 3 point shooter, and superior by far in ts%. I still prefer Alec Burks over RJ despite this statistical proof that Jefferson is better for winning games. I don't know what more you wish to gain from your demands.
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
candrew
Well-Known Member
For one thing Burks sat on the bench last might while Jefferson finished the game. The counter arguement that Jefferson was having a better game is meaningless to the folks thst recognize that Jefferson won't be here next year - he may not even be here next month.
GVC
Well-Known Member
Not me in particular. If you've already made up your mind, and refuse to even consider other points of view, what's the point of talking about something? Are people really that desperate for a pat on the back?
Joe Bagadonuts
Well-Known Member
Your argument is splitting hairs. I don't care that only 31 players average 35+ minutes. If they only get 32 minutes because of foul problems I really don't care. My point and my meaning is that I want our young guys to play as much as possible. They are young and can handle more than 30 minutes a game. I would like them to get them as much time together as possible. If that is 30 minutes great. If that is 35 minutes even better. And as for the subs I would like to see Gobert and Clark or even Harris get the remaining minutes. I don't care if Jefferson or Williams even play at all. Jefferson has proved not loyal and Williams is also likely gone if he doesn't take a substantial pay cut.
As for why get involved in the discussion is again splitting hairs. I didn't mean I wont back and forth with you so much as nothing you have said, or will say, can convince me that the Jazz are better off playing Jefferson or Williams as much as Corbin has been. This year should only be about developing our young talent. If the young talent is good enough to win great. Then next year we should be good despite getting to pick somewhere between 8-14 in the upcoming draft. If we lose (and we will lose more games playing young guys lots more) then we get a higher pick and maybe even a game changer type player. Playing the young guys major minutes is a win/win scenario.
This is an interesting thread. The content in this tread is why I joined this site. Good arguments on both sides. Being backed up with stats and examples.
My take on the RJ/Marv VS. Burks/Kanter minutes is more down the middle than most I guess. I like RJ in the starting lineup. He spaces the floor as our best 3 points shooter (42%). He doesn't need the ball to make things happen and is a great 4th to 5th option to Burke, Gordon, and Favs. He brings leadership when the team is looking a little lost and has taken over at times when the offense isn't clicking. Where I do have a problem is that He is getting more minutes than those contributions deserve now. Back in Nov Jeffersons minutes were justified because of injuries and the fact that we had to play Burks at PG. Plus with Burks struggles with being moved between PG and SG made Jeffersons minutes even more important to this team. Now that we have a healthy team and Jefferson should be getting no more than 20-24 minutes a game.
Marvin and Kanter is a little different. Kanter up until the last couple of weeks was playing bad. Marvin in the starting line up made us better. The stats, the win/losses, and just watching the games show you this. Up until now I haven't had a problem with Marvin starting and playing in the rotation that Corbin has been using because it was working. Now that Kanter is starting to play better this issue needs to be brought up again. Last night was the perfect example, The Lakers started two 7 footers. There are times that Corbin needs to realize that defensively we can not compete with 2 players like that in the post playing Marvin at the 4. The Memphis game was another example of this. Favs had to guard Randolph, that left Marv on Koufos. Koufos had a great game because of it.
Kanter need to start and play major minutes against team like that.
My take on the RJ/Marv VS. Burks/Kanter minutes is more down the middle than most I guess. I like RJ in the starting lineup. He spaces the floor as our best 3 points shooter (42%). He doesn't need the ball to make things happen and is a great 4th to 5th option to Burke, Gordon, and Favs. He brings leadership when the team is looking a little lost and has taken over at times when the offense isn't clicking. Where I do have a problem is that He is getting more minutes than those contributions deserve now. Back in Nov Jeffersons minutes were justified because of injuries and the fact that we had to play Burks at PG. Plus with Burks struggles with being moved between PG and SG made Jeffersons minutes even more important to this team. Now that we have a healthy team and Jefferson should be getting no more than 20-24 minutes a game.
Marvin and Kanter is a little different. Kanter up until the last couple of weeks was playing bad. Marvin in the starting line up made us better. The stats, the win/losses, and just watching the games show you this. Up until now I haven't had a problem with Marvin starting and playing in the rotation that Corbin has been using because it was working. Now that Kanter is starting to play better this issue needs to be brought up again. Last night was the perfect example, The Lakers started two 7 footers. There are times that Corbin needs to realize that defensively we can not compete with 2 players like that in the post playing Marvin at the 4. The Memphis game was another example of this. Favs had to guard Randolph, that left Marv on Koufos. Koufos had a great game because of it.
Kanter need to start and play major minutes against team like that.
On Corbin
While I disagree with a lot of posters on this board when it comes to how bad Corbin is as a coach there is one thing that I think is a major problem. (And its not his overplaying of Vets).
Corbin has improved over the last couple of years in a lot of areas. He has made adjustment to the offense by changing it based on the players he has. Outside of Raja he has always seemed to have a locker room were people know what to expect and are kept together. The team Always plays hard. Even when they are getting killed they always seem to fight. The Jazz are one of the few bad teams that play hard every night. He is getting better at calling time outs and riding lineups that are working instead of just subing when the clock says to.
That being said the problem that I am seeing is huge. I don't think Corbin has the ability to think like a defensive minded coach. Offensively I have seen that adjustments. Defensively the Jazz always seem to give up shots that you scratch your head and think "how did that guy get so open?" The point I made with Kanter vs Marv in the last post I made I think is the main problem. Corbin just doesn't think defense. He starts Mavin against Pau with the thought that Pau well have to chase Marvin out to the 3 point line and that gives the Jazz an advantage, Yet is willing to give up a ton on defense by making Marv or RJeff guard Pau on the defensive end. Forcing your defense to double team and giving a great passing big in Gasol free rain to pick you apart with his passing. Marv had a clunker of a game on the offensive end. Gasol had 23 points and 17 rebounds. Yet it took until the end of the game for Corbin to make the switch.
The point of all this is that in order to be a great team you have to defend. The Bobcats have a top 5 defense with Al Jefferson in the middle and an undersized PG. The Jazz have never been in the top 15 defensively with Corbin as the coach. There is no way you can convince me that the Bobcats starters have better individual defenders than the Jazz. Corbin is an offensive minded coach that doesn't have the horses to make his system thrive.
Hopeful Lindsey was serious in what he said that we needed to find a defensive identity.
While I disagree with a lot of posters on this board when it comes to how bad Corbin is as a coach there is one thing that I think is a major problem. (And its not his overplaying of Vets).
Corbin has improved over the last couple of years in a lot of areas. He has made adjustment to the offense by changing it based on the players he has. Outside of Raja he has always seemed to have a locker room were people know what to expect and are kept together. The team Always plays hard. Even when they are getting killed they always seem to fight. The Jazz are one of the few bad teams that play hard every night. He is getting better at calling time outs and riding lineups that are working instead of just subing when the clock says to.
That being said the problem that I am seeing is huge. I don't think Corbin has the ability to think like a defensive minded coach. Offensively I have seen that adjustments. Defensively the Jazz always seem to give up shots that you scratch your head and think "how did that guy get so open?" The point I made with Kanter vs Marv in the last post I made I think is the main problem. Corbin just doesn't think defense. He starts Mavin against Pau with the thought that Pau well have to chase Marvin out to the 3 point line and that gives the Jazz an advantage, Yet is willing to give up a ton on defense by making Marv or RJeff guard Pau on the defensive end. Forcing your defense to double team and giving a great passing big in Gasol free rain to pick you apart with his passing. Marv had a clunker of a game on the offensive end. Gasol had 23 points and 17 rebounds. Yet it took until the end of the game for Corbin to make the switch.
The point of all this is that in order to be a great team you have to defend. The Bobcats have a top 5 defense with Al Jefferson in the middle and an undersized PG. The Jazz have never been in the top 15 defensively with Corbin as the coach. There is no way you can convince me that the Bobcats starters have better individual defenders than the Jazz. Corbin is an offensive minded coach that doesn't have the horses to make his system thrive.
Hopeful Lindsey was serious in what he said that we needed to find a defensive identity.