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What kind of season did our players have so far

jazzrule

jazzrule

Well-Known Member
John Hollinger sets a 15.00 as what is the league average is for NBA players, so I wanted to know how the Jazz players, probably coming back, ranked for this season. First is an explanation of what PER is and then I showed the rankings for most Jazz players that may be back next year.

Hope you enjoy this and it generates some discussion, and yes GVC I know PER has its flaws.

The player efficiency rating (PER) is a rating of a player's per-minute productivity.
To generate PER, John Hollinger created formulas -- outlined in tortuous detail in my book "Pro Basketball Forecast" -- that return a value for each of a player's accomplishments. That includes positive accomplishments such as field goals, free throws, 3-pointers, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals, and negative ones such as missed shots, turnovers and personal fouls.

Two important things to remember about PER are that it's per-minute and is pace-adjusted.

Because it's a per-minute measure, it allows us to compare, say, Steve Blake and Derek Fisher, even though there is a disparity in their minutes played.
Hollinger also adjust each player's rating for his team's pace, so that players on a slow-paced team like Detroit aren't penalized just because their team has fewer possessions than a fast-paced team such as Golden State.
Bear in mind that PER is not the final, once-and-for-all evaluation of a player's accomplishments during the season. This is especially true for defensive specialists -- such as Quinton Ross and Jason Collins -- who don't get many blocks or steals.
What PER can do, however, is summarize a player's statistical accomplishments in a single number. That allows us to unify the disparate data on each player we try to track in our heads (e.g., Corey Maggette: free-throw machine, good rebounder, decent shooter, poor passer, etc.) so that we can move on to evaluating what might be missing from the stats.
I set the league average in PER to 15.00 every season.

49[SUP]th[/SUP] Ranked player in the NBA based on PER
Derrick Favors:
[TABLE="width: 479"]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]MP[/TD]
[TD]FGA[/TD]
[TD]TRB[/TD]
[TD]AST[/TD]
[TD]STL[/TD]
[TD]BLK[/TD]
[TD]TOV[/TD]
[TD]PTS[/TD]
[TD]FG%[/TD]
[TD]3P%[/TD]
[TD]FT%[/TD]
[TD]PER[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]D Favors[/TD]
[TD]30.1[/TD]
[TD]10.0[/TD]
[TD]8.8[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD]1.5[/TD]
[TD]1.7[/TD]
[TD]12.9[/TD]
[TD]0.512[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0.667[/TD]
[TD]18.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Ranked 132th
Enes Kanter:
[TABLE="width: 487"]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]MP[/TD]
[TD]FGA[/TD]
[TD]TRB[/TD]
[TD]AST[/TD]
[TD]STL[/TD]
[TD]BLK[/TD]
[TD]TOV[/TD]
[TD]PTS[/TD]
[TD]FG%[/TD]
[TD]3P%[/TD]
[TD]FT%[/TD]
[TD]PER[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]E Kanter[/TD]
[TD]26.4[/TD]
[TD]10.5[/TD]
[TD]7.0[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]0.4[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD]1.7[/TD]
[TD]12.1[/TD]
[TD]0.490[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0.735[/TD]
[TD]15.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Ranked 154th
Marvin Williams:
[TABLE="width: 479"]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]MP[/TD]
[TD]FGA[/TD]
[TD]TRB[/TD]
[TD]AST[/TD]
[TD]STL[/TD]
[TD]BLK[/TD]
[TD]TOV[/TD]
[TD]PTS[/TD]
[TD]FG%[/TD]
[TD]3P%[/TD]
[TD]FT%[/TD]
[TD]PER[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]M Williams[/TD]
[TD]25.7[/TD]
[TD]8.2[/TD]
[TD]5.2[/TD]
[TD]1.2[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[TD]9.3[/TD]
[TD]0.438[/TD]
[TD]0.360[/TD]
[TD]0.775[/TD]
[TD]14.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Ranked 98th
Jeremy Evans:
[TABLE="width: 479"]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]MP[/TD]
[TD]FGA[/TD]
[TD]TRB[/TD]
[TD]AST[/TD]
[TD]STL[/TD]
[TD]BLK[/TD]
[TD]TOV[/TD]
[TD]PTS[/TD]
[TD]FG%[/TD]
[TD]3P%[/TD]
[TD]FT%[/TD]
[TD]PER[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]J Evans[/TD]
[TD]17.5[/TD]
[TD]4.9[/TD]
[TD]4.6[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD]5.9[/TD]
[TD]0.531[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0.694[/TD]
[TD]16.6[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Ranked 107th
Alec Burks:
[TABLE="width: 479"]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]MP[/TD]
[TD]FGA[/TD]
[TD]TRB[/TD]
[TD]AST[/TD]
[TD]STL[/TD]
[TD]BLK[/TD]
[TD]TOV[/TD]
[TD]PTS[/TD]
[TD]FG%[/TD]
[TD]3P%[/TD]
[TD]FT%[/TD]
[TD]PER[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]A Burks[/TD]
[TD]27.7[/TD]
[TD]10.8[/TD]
[TD]3.3[/TD]
[TD]2.7[/TD]
[TD]0.9[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.9[/TD]
[TD]13.8[/TD]
[TD]0.451[/TD]
[TD]0.349[/TD]
[TD]0.734[/TD]
[TD]15.8[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Ranked 235th
Trey Burke:
[TABLE="width: 479"]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]MP[/TD]
[TD]FGA[/TD]
[TD]TRB[/TD]
[TD]AST[/TD]
[TD]STL[/TD]
[TD]BLK[/TD]
[TD]TOV[/TD]
[TD]PTS[/TD]
[TD]FG%[/TD]
[TD]3P%[/TD]
[TD]FT%[/TD]
[TD]PER[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]T Burke[/TD]
[TD]31.7[/TD]
[TD]12.5[/TD]
[TD]3.0[/TD]
[TD]5.3[/TD]
[TD]0.6[/TD]
[TD]0.1[/TD]
[TD]1.9[/TD]
[TD]12.5[/TD]
[TD]0.378[/TD]
[TD]0.336[/TD]
[TD]0.890[/TD]
[TD]12.2[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Ranked - Would have been ranked 247[SUP]th[/SUP] if he had played 500 or more minutes or played 6.09 minutes per game, as it was he was not on the list.

Rudy Gobert:
[TABLE="width: 479"]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]MP[/TD]
[TD]FGA[/TD]
[TD]TRB[/TD]
[TD]AST[/TD]
[TD]STL[/TD]
[TD]BLK[/TD]
[TD]TOV[/TD]
[TD]PTS[/TD]
[TD]FG%[/TD]
[TD]3P%[/TD]
[TD]FT%[/TD]
[TD]PER[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]R Gobert[/TD]
[TD]9.9[/TD]
[TD]1.5[/TD]
[TD]3.4[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]0.2[/TD]
[TD]1.0[/TD]
[TD]0.8[/TD]
[TD]2.2[/TD]
[TD]0.475[/TD]
[TD]0.000[/TD]
[TD]0.500[/TD]
[TD]12.1[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Ranked 92th
Gordon Hayward:
[TABLE="width: 479"]
[TR]
[TD]Player[/TD]
[TD]MP[/TD]
[TD]FGA[/TD]
[TD]TRB[/TD]
[TD]AST[/TD]
[TD]STL[/TD]
[TD]BLK[/TD]
[TD]TOV[/TD]
[TD]PTS[/TD]
[TD]FG%[/TD]
[TD]3P%[/TD]
[TD]FT%[/TD]
[TD]PER[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]G Hayward[/TD]
[TD]36.3[/TD]
[TD]13.4[/TD]
[TD]5.1[/TD]
[TD]5.2[/TD]
[TD]1.5[/TD]
[TD]0.5[/TD]
[TD]2.8[/TD]
[TD]16.1[/TD]
[TD]0.414[/TD]
[TD]0.313[/TD]
[TD]0.816[/TD]
[TD]16.3[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

We have 5 players that are better than average NBA players, per their PER, and only one that is ranked in the top fifty players barely. I am afraid we may need a couple of years for the young players to develop and a coach that will give them the needed minutes.

The first 2 players on the PER list were Kevin Durant PER 30.46 and LeBron James PER 29.17 for comparison.

LOL feel free to give rep. Wink
 
Last edited:
So, Derrick Favors is our best player. Players ranked around Favors:

Jordan Hill
Kwahi Leonard
Markieff Morris
James Johnson
Terrance Jones

Hayward is grouped with:

Taj Gibson
Gorgui Deng
Sullinger
DJ Augustin

Then we have Kanter and Burks, ranked as slightly above average.

Burks is ranked by:

CJ Miles
Trevor Ariza
Kyle O'Quinn
Aaron Afflalo

Kanter is ranked by:

Luol Deng
Michael Carter-Williams
Nick Young
Markief Morris

Finally, we have Trey Burke:

Avery Bradley
Jan Vesley
Kenyon Martin
Richard Jefferson

lol. Basically, we suck. Ha ha.

Kanter and Burks are great bench guys. Favors is paid where he should be. More than 10 per year is overpaying for Hayward and I let him walk.

Burke is bad, but doesn't play in an offensive or defensive system, is a rookie pg, and if he doesn't pan out, is on a rookie deal.

So, we are what we are. A bad basketball team. We will get a top 5 pick, deservingly so. We will probably suck again next year. In fact, we should suck again. That would be the smart thing to do if you are building a title contending team.

I've said it before, but we will probably lose a lot again next year. We will build around Burke, 2014 pick, 2015 pick, and Favors. Hopefully the 2017 pick pans out and we are competing for a title around 2020.
 
Surprised Trey's PER is that low since the PER system rewards players who have low TO #'s (main reason why Big Al's PER is always through the roof despite few FTA and average big man FG%). I guess his awful FG% really screwed him with that.
 
Based on PER, I wonder how Hayward's agent is going to try to sell the Jazz that he is worthy of near the max. Wish I could listen to that conversation.
 
I would take this with a grain of salt. Both our offense and defense have been poorly organized this year. The team we have is incomplete and several players would look better in a better system with a clear go-to offensive player or scheme. Also, I'm not sure how seriously our team even took this season. It was apparent that we wanted to lose, and we started like 1-13. Guys were mailing it in.

That said, I think Favors made a little progress this year with his free-throw shooting and his offensive fluidity. Baby steps, I guess. His last game against the Spurs was promising.

Burks is showing more consistency and ability to let the game come to him.

Burke did okay for a rookie, and he'll get better.

The other guys underperformed.
 
jazzrule said:
Based on PER, I wonder how Hayward's agent is going to try to sell the Jazz that he is worthy of near the max. Wish I could listen to that conversation.
Click to expand...
Forget PER, that's a losing battle. Hayward's agent's best shot at near-max money is to use the "distance travelled" angle. Didn't I read somewhere that Hay-time ran the most miles of any player in the league this season. He's an elite "runner", so he needs to be paid as such.
 
akirac73 said:
Forget PER, that's a losing battle. Hayward's agent's best shot at near-max money is to use the "distance travelled" angle. Didn't I read somewhere that Hay-time ran the most miles of any player in the league this season. He's an elite "runner", so he needs to be paid as such.
Click to expand...

Maybe we can pay him by the mile.
 
what happens when you llet your point guard play like a point guard like last night? better stats

trey is our mario chalmers. and hayward is our lebron. sigh.
 
ESPN now had a "real plus minus" stat you can sort by. It is based on the xRAPM, a combination of pure RAPM and box score production. I'm guessing its creator might have been hired by ESPN? Anyways, most Jazz players did very poor in this stat. The score represents per 100 possessions. 0 is average.

RPM
Hayward: 1.47
Burks: -0.08
Williams: -0.35
Favors: -0.99
Burke: -1.66
Jefferson: -2.89
Kanter: -4.75 (7th worst center in the league by this stat)

Even though Burke is subpar in this stat at -1.66, he schools most the other rookies.

Oladipo: -1.58
Plumlee: -2.84
MCW: -3.05
Haradway Jr: -5.22
Mclemore: -5.43 (5th worst SG in the league by this stat)
 
Fabtrey said:
what happens when you llet your point guard play like a point guard like last night? better stats

trey is our mario chalmers. and hayward is our lebron. sigh.
Click to expand...

I think this is the biggest thing people overlook. Trey was used so improperly this season. What made Trey special leaving UM was the fact he was the dominate ball handler. Making Trey a spot up shooter is the equivalent of making Alec the main facilitator or Derrick a jump shooter. It was clear the that at some point the plan was to allow Hayward to initiate the offense thus neutralizing Burke greatest skill.
 
Jazz4ever said:
ESPN now had a "real plus minus" stat you can sort by. It is based on the xRAPM, a combination of pure RAPM and box score production. I'm guessing its creator might have been hired by ESPN? Anyways, most Jazz players did very poor in this stat. The score represents per 100 possessions. 0 is average.

RPM
Hayward: 1.47
Burks: -0.08
Williams: -0.35
Favors: -0.99
Burke: -1.66
Jefferson: -2.89
Kanter: -4.75 (7th worst center in the league by this stat)

Even though Burke is subpar in this stat at -1.66, he schools most the other rookies.
Click to expand...

So sad to see Kanter's career is going nowhere... He entered the NBA as a third pick and in his third year when he was expected to prove his value he proved to be the 7th worst center. Quite impressive.

The people around Kanter, the ones close to him should be proud of themselves since they have strongly indoctrinated this young player towards being involved in Turkish domestic politics this year, using Kanter as a political instrument; and Kanter with his mind focused on those things all along, making an ugly profile for himself in front of his countrymen, and then maybe panicking about it, etc, can only "improve" that much...

(Some guy here was saying a couple months ago "Kanter has the right to voice his negative views for the administration of the Turkish soccer federation..." The soccer federation?? What the hell is Kanter's business to concentrate on whatever fight is going on in Turkey concerning the soccer federation (the issue is political)?
Is this what the Utah Jazz franchise is paying him for, or selected him for the investment?
 
Jazz4ever said:
ESPN now had a "real plus minus" stat you can sort by. It is based on the xRAPM, a combination of pure RAPM and box score production. I'm guessing its creator might have been hired by ESPN? Anyways, most Jazz players did very poor in this stat. The score represents per 100 possessions. 0 is average.

RPM
Hayward: 1.47
Burks: -0.08
Williams: -0.35
Favors: -0.99
Burke: -1.66
Jefferson: -2.89
Kanter: -4.75 (7th worst center in the league by this stat)

Even though Burke is subpar in this stat at -1.66, he schools most the other rookies.

Oladipo: -1.58
Plumlee: -2.84
MCW: -3.05
Haradway Jr: -5.22
Mclemore: -5.43 (5th worst SG in the league by this stat)
Click to expand...

Burke is a lot better than he gets credit for. He has three limitations:

1 - He plays for Corbin ie, no offense or defense
2 - He doesn't play PG offensively, Hayward does
3 - PG's just suck their rookie years in the NBA.

Also, Hayward is a very solid player. I keep him if my goals are playoffs. If my goals are grow the youth, get them experience and another draft pick, I let Hayward walk.
 
The team would have been much more effective, I think, if Burke and Burks were the primary ball handlers and Hayward was used as a spot-up shooter like the year prior. I just don't see the wisdom of having Hayward be a primary ball handler when a) his handle is loose, b) he doesn't shoot well off the bounce, c) he doesn't get all the way to the rim, and d) there are only one or two people he can meaningfully pass to and accomplish anything (Burke & Favors). He should have sat back on the 3-pt line like Richard Jefferson, which Jefferson came off the bench.

But this season wasn't based on trying to win. The team was trying to lose all year. That strategy worked fairly well.
 
Doesn't Plus/Minus still get strongly affected by the players who are on the floor as a group?

Who was on the floor when Kanter played most of his minutes---Garret, Evans, Marvin, etc.?

What's his +/- supposed to look like?
 
Catchall said:
Doesn't Plus/Minus still get strongly affected by the players who are on the floor as a group?

Who was on the floor when Kanter played most of his minutes---Garret, Evans, Marvin, etc.?

What's his +/- supposed to look like?
Click to expand...

Not only who they are playing with but who they play against. Not sure what so new about the plus minus stat. They didn't get into details about what was different, but plus or minus isn't the greatest measurement either way you slice it. Just another stat to try to quantify what you see what your eyes.
 
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