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A question for Turks

♪alt13

Well-Known Member
Why not just give the Kurds the land east of the Euphrates or even just south of the Murat? Why not let them have their own country? Wouldn't you gain more than you would lose. They surely would join with Iraqi Kurdistan and all that oil. Wouldn't you become the good guy and Iran the bad? I know the PKK has committed a lot of violence but now it seems you have a possible partner in Barzani. Leadership that desperately needs you as a friend and ally rather than a target.

Honestly if Minnesota wanted to join Canada I really wouldn't care.

I'm really not trying to ruffle any feathers. I just would like to know what you guys think.
 
Why not just give the Kurds the land east of the Euphrates or even just south of the Murat? Why not let them have their own country? Wouldn't you gain more than you would lose. They surely would join with Iraqi Kurdistan and all that oil. Wouldn't you become the good guy and Iran the bad? I know the PKK has committed a lot of violence but now it seems you have a possible partner in Barzani. Leadership that desperately needs you as a friend and ally rather than a target.

Honestly if Minnesota wanted to join Canada I really wouldn't care.

I'm really not trying to ruffle any feathers. I just would like to know what you guys think.

Name one country that gave away land for free in history.
 
Name one country that gave away land for free in history.

England. Pretty much gave up most of the world.

Also it doesn't need to be for free. I'm sure numerous concessions would be necessary and maybe even payment.

Honest questions really. I just want to understand your position for the sake of understanding. Why not? What kind of consequences would there be for the average Turk?
 
England. Pretty much gave up most of the world.

Tell that to Irish and Scotts. England only gave up colonies after they took their resources. Now they just pay them dirt cheap wages and have the same effect.

There are countries that even claim parts of Antarctica. Thinking a country will give up valuable land is being naïve.
 
Tell that to Irish and Scotts. England only gave up colonies after they took their resources. Now they just pay them dirt cheap wages and have the same effect.

There are countries that even claim parts of Antarctica. Thinking a country will give up valuable land is being naïve.

They also gave up Ireland(the southern bit at least). The Scotts are scheduling a vote for independence last I heard and as far as I know the decision is theirs.
 
Look at all the blood shed they saved by negotiating with the Irish. Both countries are better for it.

Really though the history of the world is more often than not a bad example. I really want to know why it matters to you.

I have had long conversations with Israeli citizens about Palestine. I've asked them similar questions. I don't want to judge I just want to understand a bit better.
 
Why not just give the Kurds the land east of the Euphrates or even just south of the Murat? Why not let them have their own country? Wouldn't you gain more than you would lose. They surely would join with Iraqi Kurdistan and all that oil. Wouldn't you become the good guy and Iran the bad? I know the PKK has committed a lot of violence but now it seems you have a possible partner in Barzani. Leadership that desperately needs you as a friend and ally rather than a target.

Honestly if Minnesota wanted to join Canada I really wouldn't care.

I'm really not trying to ruffle any feathers. I just would like to know what you guys think.

Politically speaking, it's probably the same reasons that Iran won't give anything to Azeri Turks. They are more there than Kurdish people are in Turkey.

I'm not much into this stuff btw, it's just too complicated for me. I try to stay away because racism/nationalism/ethnicism is nothing but very disruptive and it's sad for me to see our people(all Turkey citizens) are under heavy pressure by it being used as a provocative tool by both the internal and the external separatists, for the last 4-5 decades. PKK are not recognized as a terrorist group on a consensus by the whole world(some countries and NATO blacklist them as terrorists some don't), which is a great disgrace on the western world in my opinion because I don't know who are terrorists if they are not. Instead, they are greatly supported by particular western and mid east countries. So it's all politics for some countries and groups, while it means only horrible deaths for both Turkish and Kurdish people and their families.

In the western media for instance, they try their best to call them as Kurdish rebels, separatists, party workers or whatever they can find for not to call them terrorists. Sometimes they are even depicted almost as heroes who are getting killed by the Turkish army undeservedly while they are fighting for their freedom, on some western TVs.

The crucial point is, to know that they do not represent Kurdish people other than a non-significant part of them. Very few Kurdish people want to get divided. Today, a guy named Selahattin Demirtaş is one of the candidates for the Presidency Elections in August, he is supported by both of the Kurdish parties(BDP and HDP) and he clearly states that Kurdish people don't want to divide Turkey, they demand their rights which they were shorn of for decades. That's the biggest mistake in the history of the Republic of Turkey in my opinion. Turkish governments have caused so much suffering and injustice for the Kurdish people and that created the base and circumstances for PKK and some other terrorist groups to emerge. And the terror is the biggest mistake of the Kurdish side likewise, because after that point it's just a vicious circle. Even though the majority of the Kurdish people didn't support the PKK, they didn't exclude, denounce or deport them either. Later on, the PKK have become a great tool to use by many many external powers including the US.

But like I said before, we're just too mixed to be divided. Living together for thousands of years, married to each other and became just too intricate to simply divide. I can give myself for an example. The father side of my family is immigrants from Turkmenistan so I technically call myself much more Turk-er than an average Turkey Turk(for fun, I'm not nationalistic) since Turkish people are a mix of Anatolian/Mid Eastern/Caucasian/Balkan people today. But it's very funny that sometimes some people in Turkey think I am a Japanese or something because of my more original Turkic facial features. Yet, to prove my point, even I have a lot of Kurdish relatives. Last summer, my older brother married a gorgeous(he'd kill me if he knew I said this) green eyed Kurdish girl. And that marriage probably made the number of my Kurdish relatives more than the number of my Turkish relatives. And it's the same everywhere in Turkey. Only Istanbul itself has a great amount of Kurdish population. And likewise, the southeastern Turkey have great amount of Turkish/Turkmen population.

It was a similar situation also with the Arabs and Turkmen in the northern Iraq and Syria. After the Ottoman dissolution those lands became like Northern/Southern Korea near the borders. Millions of people got separated, families were disintegrated.

To me, dividing Turkey, is the last must-be-taken step for some people to make Turkish and Kurdish people as enemies to each other, it's the only way actually. Divide them, separate people, wait for them to forget their ties, and after a few decades implement all the political **** and poison to provoke each side, and congratulations, you have two enemy countries.

Finally, there is one more thing that is in the play. Like most of the time, it's oil. Southestearn Turkey has the only oil resources in the country and the chances are there are more oil reserves there waiting to be discovered. I'm not going to dive into that cause I specifically hate the subject. It's just the game of greedy people.
 
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Turkey has almost no oil. Turkey is number 62 in the world for oil production. Behind France, Italy, Japan, Australia, Denmark, Vietnam to name a few.

There is only 1 thing that I think can fix this problem. Increase standards of living. (Booming economy, more rights etc).

Native Americans and Mexican Americans don't complain too much about America because living standards are pretty good. If Turkey receives booming economy where the standards of living for all its citizens including its Kurdish citizens increase greatly, I think it would cause less terrorists to form. You think Nazi's would have come to power if Germany wasn't so dirt poor from WW1?
 
Turkey has almost no oil. Turkey is number 62 in the world for oil production. Behind France, Italy, Japan, Australia, Denmark, Vietnam to name a few.
That's why the sources in the southeastern Turkey is crucial. And some Kurdish groups have their eyes on it. Controlling that sources makes Turkey even more dependent.
 
For starters, things have changed a little since the 90's. Kurds don't want separation anymore. They want federation. The leaders thought, hey we already do what we wanna do in this country, why the hell would we wanna leave! Lets bribe our base society with federation and keep benefiting The turkish state.
 
Why not just give the Kurds the land east of the Euphrates or even just south of the Murat? Why not let them have their own country? Wouldn't you gain more than you would lose. They surely would join with Iraqi Kurdistan and all that oil. Wouldn't you become the good guy and Iran the bad? I know the PKK has committed a lot of violence but now it seems you have a possible partner in Barzani. Leadership that desperately needs you as a friend and ally rather than a target.

Honestly if Minnesota wanted to join Canada I really wouldn't care.

I'm really not trying to ruffle any feathers. I just would like to know what you guys think.
You personally would not care but US Authorities would ream a new ******** to those secessionist Minnesotanians.
well,you know me, I am a college professor who happens to deal with these issues, a lot.
Today's Kurdish regions have been under Turkish sovereignty for , like a thousand year.
These places have never been under direct Kurdish sovereignty but Kurds have enjoyed a great deal of autonomy back then.
Why is that?
For the states of the time were never the pan-opticons (=Leviathans) they are now, with their hi-tech surveillance capabilities and stuff.
So Mexico does't have any sovereignty rights and claims on Florida just for the fact that Hispanics are a majority now in certain cities.
Turkey is not the ideal democracy and there have been grave and widespread violations of human rights.
This happened prolly in the worst way in Kurdish-populated areas.
That said, other regions were also heavily hit by this attitude of the state security apparatus, especially following the 1980 coup d'etat.
I mean 'twas not the Kurds only who were hit.
Especially leftist groups were smashed brutally (cold war times baby. CIA were involved too) That said, far-right pro-government militia was also target of the state suppression. Buck did not stop with them,liberals, bloody islamists everybody got hit.
So basically problem is an Human Rights issue.

However, despite her non-stellar human rights record, Turkey has never been an apartheid regime, nor an alien dominator nor an occupying force.
So Kurds have no right to secede according to International Law.
That said, future is bleak for Turkey. I am expecting a civil strife maybe war in -say- 20 years.
 
You personally would not care but US Authorities would ream a new ******** to those secessionist Minnesotanians.
well,you know me, I am a college professor who happens to deal with these issues, a lot.
Today's Kurdish regions have been under Turkish sovereignty for , like a thousand year.
These places have never been under direct Kurdish sovereignty but Kurds have enjoyed a great deal of autonomy back then.
Why is that?
For the states of the time were never the pan-opticons (=Leviathans) they are now, with their hi-tech surveillance capabilities and stuff.
So Mexico does't have any sovereignty rights and claims on Florida just for the fact that Hispanics are a majority now in certain cities.
Turkey is not the ideal democracy and there have been grave and widespread violations of human rights.
This happened prolly in the worst way in Kurdish-populated areas.
That said, other regions were also heavily hit by this attitude of the state security apparatus, especially following the 1980 coup d'etat.
I mean 'twas not the Kurds only who were hit.
Especially leftist groups were smashed brutally (cold war times baby. CIA were involved too) That said, far-right pro-government militia was also target of the state suppression. Buck did not stop with them,liberals, bloody islamists everybody got hit.
So basically problem is an Human Rights issue.

However, despite her non-stellar human rights record, Turkey has never been an apartheid regime, nor an alien dominator nor an occupying force.
So Kurds have no right to secede according to International Law.
That said, future is bleak for Turkey. I am expecting a civil strife maybe war in -say- 20 years.

Really? Why? Is the primary problem ideological, ethnic, economic, sectarian? (a little surprised by your last sentence tbh)
 
Politically speaking, it's probably the same reasons that Iran won't give anything to Azeri Turks. They are more there than Kurdish people are in Turkey.

I'm not much into this stuff btw, it's just too complicated for me. I try to stay away because racism/nationalism/ethnicism is nothing but very disruptive and it's sad for me to see our people(all Turkey citizens) are under heavy pressure by it being used as a provocative tool by both the internal and the external separatists, for the last 4-5 decades. PKK are not recognized as a terrorist group on a consensus by the whole world(some countries and NATO blacklist them as terrorists some don't), which is a great disgrace on the western world in my opinion because I don't know who are terrorists if they are not. Instead, they are greatly supported by particular western and mid east countries. So it's all politics for some countries and groups, while it means only horrible deaths for both Turkish and Kurdish people and their families.

In the western media for instance, they try their best to call them as Kurdish rebels, separatists, party workers or whatever they can find for not to call them terrorists. Sometimes they are even depicted almost as heroes who are getting killed by the Turkish army undeservedly while they are fighting for their freedom, on some western TVs.

The crucial point is, to know that they do not represent Kurdish people other than a non-significant part of them. Very few Kurdish people want to get divided. Today, a guy named Selahattin Demirtaş is one of the candidates for the Presidency Elections in August, he is supported by both of the Kurdish parties(BDP and HDP) and he clearly states that Kurdish people don't want to divide Turkey, they demand their rights which they were shorn of for decades. That's the biggest mistake in the history of the Republic of Turkey in my opinion. Turkish governments have caused so much suffering and injustice for the Kurdish people and that created the base and circumstances for PKK and some other terrorist groups to emerge. And the terror is the biggest mistake of the Kurdish side likewise, because after that point it's just a vicious circle. Even though the majority of the Kurdish people didn't support the PKK, they didn't exclude, denounce or deport them either. Later on, the PKK have become a great tool to use by many many external powers including the US.

But like I said before, we're just too mixed to be divided. Living together for thousands of years, married to each other and became just too intricate to simply divide. I can give myself for an example. The father side of my family is immigrants from Turkmenistan so I technically call myself much more Turk-er than an average Turkey Turk(for fun, I'm not nationalistic) since Turkish people are a mix of Anatolian/Mid Eastern/Caucasian/Balkan people today. But it's very funny that sometimes some people in Turkey think I am a Japanese or something because of my more original Turkic facial features. Yet, to prove my point, even I have a lot of Kurdish relatives. Last summer, my older brother married a gorgeous(he'd kill me if he knew I said this) green eyed Kurdish girl. And that marriage probably made the number of my Kurdish relatives more than the number of my Turkish relatives. And it's the same everywhere in Turkey. Only Istanbul itself has a great amount of Kurdish population. And likewise, the southeastern Turkey have great amount of Turkish/Turkmen population.

It was a similar situation also with the Arabs and Turkmen in the northern Iraq and Syria. After the Ottoman dissolution those lands became like Northern/Southern Korea near the borders. Millions of people got separated, families were disintegrated.

To me, dividing Turkey, is the last must-be-taken step for some people to make Turkish and Kurdish people as enemies to each other, it's the only way actually. Divide them, separate people, wait for them to forget their ties, and after a few decades implement all the political **** and poison to provoke each side, and congratulations, you have two enemy countries.

Finally, there is one more thing that is in the play. Like most of the time, it's oil. Southestearn Turkey has the only oil resources in the country and the chances are there are more oil reserves there waiting to be discovered. I'm not going to dive into that cause I specifically hate the subject. It's just the game of greedy people.

What do you think about the Scottish independence referendum? How about the Ukrainian situation? Are there any parallels themes in Turkey? Does belonging to the EU make it easier for the UK to just vote on it? Is it shared language?
 
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