Mandatory education at 3 years age

[One Brow]

Definitely seems like both parents must work nowadays to make ends meet than in the past

I'm not so sure about that. I think this might be true in middle-class families, and even then, it's more a matter of allowing both parents to work, and taking advantage of the income, than being forced to work. In the lower fifth of income, it has always been commonplace that both parents would work.

 

[Stoked]

I'm not so sure about that. I think this might be true in middle-class families, and even then, it's more a matter of allowing both parents to work, and taking advantage of the income, than being forced to work. In the lower fifth of income, it has always been commonplace that both parents would work.

Very good point. Often both parents work to afford a bigger and better lifestyle. It is a want not a need. Very true Brow.

 

[One Brow]

There have always been a mixture of "good" and "bad" parents. The difference is parents used to take responsibility for their kids.

Nostalgia was so much better in the 1970s.

There have always been parents who took responsibility, and those that do not. I don't see any reason to think the percentage has changed.

 

[babe]

Even Huffington Post says your precious Obama is trying for destruction of child's brain. https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/4704694

This man, he is trying to take down America. Open your eyes the liberal media has brainwashed too many.

So how come I can let my kids play for hours every day with little more than a general awareness of their welfare and whereabouts, and they still know more than their public school system cohorts. Public education is largely a waste of the money, and the reason is largely captured by the Huffington Post writer in the link above.


Pre-K or even grade school is not the best time to attack the creative human potential by forcing regimented behavior, assimilation of a memorized but unreasoned set of facts or skills. The purpose of "education" is not to stamp out mindless human slave clones to serve industry.

Education is about drawing out the limitless human potential, not hammering people into some corporate role with a zombie efficiency.


As things stand now, my eleven year old daughters are out in the back yard, in a shed they call their "Reading Fort", with books in their hands and all the eager interest in the world anyone could ask for.

They can read better than the average college freshman. . . . and know more, too. And they have made a game of it. Who'd have thunk it?

 

[franklin]

I just bought a Corolla. I decided I need to change occupations. To get a mechanical Engineering degree I'm looking at just a few thousands more than it was to buy my car. In state tuition really is a fantastic deal.

Excellent choice. Any engineering degree has a strong chance of making $100k or much better, even in Utah. The Environmental Engineers I work with make about $85k equivalent (I work for the state), and are about 20% below market. The private sector engineers start out between 75k-85k, and there's plenty of room to move up from there. Here's a good example: https://www.pacificorp.com/car/op/sp.html -->> "Senior Environmental Analyst - SLC, UT-140953"

If I could find any guidance when I was in school I would have worked much less and happily lived on student loans to graduate years sooner and land one of those high paying jobs right out the gate. The very first year would easily make up for $25k-$30k in student debt.

 

[One Brow]

Even then the overall tone of Jazzgasm post remains the same. "One size fits all" is not the best way. To do it the much more effective way would require a much better use, and increase, of the funds provided. Also new tactics and methods.

The last time I read people who study these things professionally, the consensus was that if you separate students according to ability, it does very little to help the high-achievers, and hurts the low achievers by quite a lot. Probably, a lot of this is from the social aspects (most teachers prefer honors courses to low-track courses, peer behavior reinforcements, etc.).

Also, segregation by ability doesn't address the most important issues of learning differences (do you learning holistically or piecemeal? Audio or visual? Text or diagram? etc.). It would be more effective to segregate, say, low- and high-achieving audio learners from low- and high-achieving visual learners than it would be to segregate low-achievers from high-achievers.

Good teachers can vary their instruction to different students within a single classroom (I'm working on this skill myself).

 

[DutchJazzer]

But really, what's wrong with getting education started earlier? We're already pretty fail... and going after a degree in many, many cases means bank note you won't finish paying until you're 50.

Why not start earlier, and get our kids to finish high school with the equivalent of an associates degree, with extra curricular option of a bachelors?

mandatory is whats wrong.

and education does not start in school.

it starts at HOME!

 

[One Brow]

mandatory is whats wrong.

and education does not start in school.

it starts at HOME!

Education became mandatory because education at home didn't work well enough.

 

[Stoked]

The last time I read people who study these things professionally, the consensus was that if you separate students according to ability, it does very little to help the high-achievers, and hurts the low achievers by quite a lot. Probably, a lot of this is from the social aspects (most teachers prefer honors courses to low-track courses, peer behavior reinforcements, etc.).

Also, segregation by ability doesn't address the most important issues of learning differences (do you learning holistically or piecemeal? Audio or visual? Text or diagram? etc.). It would be more effective to segregate, say, low- and high-achieving audio learners from low- and high-achieving visual learners than it would be to segregate low-achievers from high-achievers.

Good teachers can vary their instruction to different students within a single classroom (I'm working on this skill myself).

I agree that segregation is bad. I was meaning adjustng teaching methods to the individual student, a nuanced approach tailored to each student based ont heir individual strengths and weaknesses. For that to be effective it would require increased funds, better use of current funds, increased resources and dramatically lower class sizes.

I do agree with and support options for excellent students to continue to excell and advance and not be restrained by their peers. But not at the expense of other students.

 

[♪alt13]

Excellent choice. Any engineering degree has a strong chance of making $100k or much better, even in Utah. The Environmental Engineers I work with make about $85k equivalent (I work for the state), and are about 20% below market. The private sector engineers start out between 75k-85k, and there's plenty of room to move up from there. Here's a good example: https://www.pacificorp.com/car/op/sp.html -->> "Senior Environmental Analyst - SLC, UT-140953"

If I could find any guidance when I was in school I would have worked much less and happily lived on student loans to graduate years sooner and land one of those high paying jobs right out the gate. The very first year would easily make up for $25k-$30k in student debt.

I'm a little worried because I won't graduate until I'm 35. So I figured I better pick a field with options and demand. I have done ok for myself to this point but I truly wish I would have done this sooner. Better late than never I suppose.

 

[Harambe]

mandatory is whats wrong.

and education does not start in school.

it starts at HOME!

Your face is wrong, yet we allow it to read this forum..

Agreeing with OneBrow is just terrible, but he's right. It's harder to get parents to parent than it is to mandate schooling.

 

[babe]

Your face is wrong, yet we allow it to read this forum..

Agreeing with OneBrow is just terrible, but he's right. It's harder to get parents to parent than it is to mandate schooling.

Assuming there are some valid studies supporting the failures of parents, the results of giving children to liberals and letting them "educate" children results in actual harm to the children on the scale of criminal child abuse. Look at the millions of socially-handicapped welfare-dependent people who've been mass-produced by "public education." No child should be put in the hands of people like OB and indoctrinated with their concepts of morality or what is "education". It's enough to ruin a nation.

"Common Core"/// ?????? c'mon. No State should have the power to indoctrinate citizens or define or test competency.

 

[The Midnight]

Wholly? As an educator let me say, the system needs tweaking. I'm fine with tenure reform and more accountability and so forth. I really am. It needs to happen and has happened, at least in NJ. But at the end of the day, 85% of the problem is the parents. That's it. It's really that simple.

The solution? People wouldn't like my Orwellian response.

LOL .. almost forgot you were a teach.

 

[The Midnight]

In Finland where their education system is held in high regard, children don't start school until they're like 6 years old. This is supposed to give the children more time to spend with their family forming a close nit bond before venturing out into the world.

 

[JAZZGASM]

The student loan debt issue is largely a myth. Do yourself a favor and look into the real statistics of who is in debt for school and why (Hint: it's children of rich parents who must attend a very expensive, elite school).

The vast majority of graduates have very manageable debt levels. Considering that employment in the US is very strong for those with a bachelors or better (it hit just 4% in the Great Recession), and wages are very liveable, coming out of college with what amounts to a car payment for the next 5 years is well worth the investment. & most grads don't even have that high of debt.

I think people generally try to go to the best school they can get into, because it gives you a higher likelihood of better career prospects. Utah tuition is very low compared to most other states, and has good schools, so the issue is not as big of a deal as in other states. The amount of student loan debt has quadrupled over the past 10 years. Between 2005-2012 the number of borrowers increased by 66% and the average balance has increased by 49%. Student loan debt now exceeds credit card and auto loan debt.

According to the PEW research center, 58% of total student loan debt is owned by those with less than $8500 in net worth, which appears to be the opposite of your statements. And 75% is owned by those with 79k or less in net worth. For the average loan debt of $30,000, the student will repay over $33k with interest. When you take away the potential time value of money of investing that early on (many students can't afford to save much until their loans are paid off), it starts to hurt.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/06/student-loan-debt-charts

I'm not familiar with this website, but their source material seems fairly accurate. I would guess that many couples have double this debt. That is quite a bit to add to the rest of life's expenses.

Tuition has been increasing 500% higher than the CPI for years.
https://inflationdata.com/inflation/Inflation_Articles/Education_Inflation.asp

Regardless of the cause, if tuition continues to increase at these rates, student loan debt will be a very big issue for many of our kids.

 

[JAZZGASM]

Education is so important in this country. I would actually like to see more (smart) investment by government at the k-12 levels when it can have an impact. Of course, spending alone is not enough as we learn from the pathetic scores in DC, which I believe has the highest spending per student in the nation but some of the worst scores/graduation rates.

In many places, including Utah, educators seem to do a great job with the resources available. I believe this to be true at k-12 and the collegiate level. Utah schools have some of the best value in the country. But I also think parents probably do a better job in Utah than other states. I think culture has a lot to do with that. Finding a solution in areas where there is not as much of an emphasis on education is not an easy task.

 

[Harambe]

Assuming there are some valid studies supporting the failures of parents, the results of giving children to liberals and letting them "educate" children results in actual harm to the children on the scale of criminal child abuse. Look at the millions of socially-handicapped welfare-dependent people who've been mass-produced by "public education." No child should be put in the hands of people like OB and indoctrinated with their concepts of morality or what is "education". It's enough to ruin a nation.

"Common Core"/// ?????? c'mon. No State should have the power to indoctrinate citizens or define or test competency.

So... are you daft, or did you just have that quarterly need to argue with ElRoach0?

You're using the argument that school is child abuse because you don't agree with the curriculum(probably rightfully so). You're not even making an effort to think about what schooling could be, just that in it's current state(in your opinion) its horrible so lets tear that ******* to the ground.

Please think that through again, re-post, and we can do this again.

 

[One Brow]

Assuming there are some valid studies ...

Were you drunk, or just playing a caricature of yourself?

 

[One Brow]

According to the PEW research center, 58% of total student loan debt is owned by those with less than $8500 in net worth, which appears to be the opposite of your statements. And 75% is owned by those with 79k or less in net worth.

You can't rebut a distributional argument with overall statistics.

 

[Gameface]

You can't rebut a distributional argument with overall statistics.

The hell you say!