The Official 2014/15 Tank Watch thread

[freakazoid]

I've only seen one team purposely throw away games: Golden State. They would bench starters in the 4th and throw balls way out of bounds to give up leads (and the team would be laughing on the sidelines). Philly was just bad last season due to personnel, as was Milwaukee, Orlando, Boston and Utah.

Benching starters for minor injuries, when they could have played is something that pretty much every team in the league has done. Nobody is playing their best team at the end of a season if it means dropping spots on a high pick, let alone if it means losing a pick entirely. As for the GS players throwing games, that didn't happen. Otherwise, explain the win against Denver that basically caused the pick to go to a coin flip. If it's a blatant tank, nobody let's the pick go to a flip. GS almost had a major PR headache because of the fact they DIDN'T secure the pick, and had they lost it, their FO would have looked like fools. GS was smart, and the only stupid thing they did was almost losing that pick.
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Philly drafted an injured player while basically admitting part of the strategy was to suck for another year. That's more blatant than GS, as they started the year trying for playoffs, before going into tank mode after injury problems.

 

[fishonjazz]

And besides that, it breeds a losing mentality that teams just can never break. All you have to do is look at those losers in Golden State. I'll bet they wish they had never seen the day they cheated us. Their fans probably don't even get that exited for their wins, because of all the shame.
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I'd rather be smart and win than noble and stuck in mediocrity.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Benching starters for minor injuries, when they could have played is something that pretty much every team in the league has done. Nobody is playing their best team at the end of a season if it means dropping spots on a high pick, let alone if it means losing a pick entirely. As for the GS players throwing games, that didn't happen. Otherwise, explain the win against Denver that basically caused the pick to go to a coin flip. If it's a blatant tank, nobody let's the pick go to a flip. GS almost had a major PR headache because of the fact they DIDN'T secure the pick, and had they lost it, their FO would have looked like fools. GS was smart, and the only stupid thing they did was almost losing that pick.
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Philly drafted an injured player while basically admitting part of the strategy was to suck for another year. That's more blatant than GS, as they started the year trying for playoffs, before going into tank mode after injury problems.

I watched most of GS's games after the break and I can tell you they lost games on purpose. It was not a matter of resting players with minor injuries. They would often pull their starters after 3 periods or midway through the 4th and have the subs finish out the games (and lose leads). I can also say with 100% certainty that many of their turnovers and bad shots were intentional. It wasn't just a case of a guy cutting the wrong way. When the players AND coaches are laughing on the sideline as a lead is lost, and the ball is thrown away and shots are badly missed, that's blatant tanking. GS tried to negotiate with KOC to keep their pick. Google it. When nothing happened, the team started losing a ton of games. Sure they had injuries. But they made up a lot of ground. One isolated game (Denver) is hardly evidence. And it was not the win that caused the pick to go to a coin flip. It came with 12 games to go. There was also the final loss to SA. Spurs rested three starters; GS countered with their rookie and D-League players.

Philly is not blatantly tanking, They are not "throwing" games. Are they bad? Yes. They simply don't have the experienced talent to compete. But there is nothing wrong with drafting injured players any more than there is with drafting Euros who won't play in the NBA for a couple of seasons - or a player who has to finish his military commitment. I have not once read Philadelphia's strategy is to lose intentionally. They made the playoffs back in 2011-12 as an 8th seed, just as Utah did. The next year they missed, realized they didn't have the horses to compete and are rebuilding within the rules. Many have said Utah should have pursued the rebuild sooner by trading Al and Paul for assets. Who knows? I don't blame Philly one bit for their strategy. They're "all in" on trying to obtain a couple of franchise players via the draft instead of overpaying for mid-tier players in free agency.

 

[Jamezz]

I watched most of GS's games after the break and I can tell you they lost games on purpose. It was not a matter of resting players with minor injuries. They would often pull their starters after 3 periods or midway through the 4th and have the subs finish out the games (and lose leads). I can also say with 100% certainty that many of their turnovers and bad shots were intentional. It wasn't just a case of a guy cutting the wrong way. When the players AND coaches are laughing on the sideline as a lead is lost, and the ball is thrown away and shots are badly missed, that's blatant tanking. GS tried to negotiate with KOC to keep their pick. Google it. When nothing happened, the team started losing a ton of games. Sure they had injuries. But they made up a lot of ground. One isolated game (Denver) is hardly evidence. And it was not the win that caused the pick to go to a coin flip. It came with 12 games to go. There was also the final loss to SA. Spurs rested three starters; GS countered with their rookie and D-League players.

Philly is not blatantly tanking, They are not "throwing" games. Are they bad? Yes. They simply don't have the experienced talent to compete. But there is nothing wrong with drafting injured players any more than there is with drafting Euros who won't play in the NBA for a couple of seasons - or a player who has to finish his military commitment. I have not once read Philadelphia's strategy is to lose intentionally. They made the playoffs back in 2011-12 as an 8th seed, just as Utah did. The next year they missed, realized they didn't have the horses to compete and are rebuilding within the rules. Many have said Utah should have pursued the rebuild sooner by trading Al and Paul for assets. Who knows? I don't blame Philly one bit for their strategy. They're "all in" on trying to obtain a couple of franchise players via the draft instead of overpaying for mid-tier players in free agency.

Nonsense. Tanking doesn't happen on the court. Why would players purposely play bad so the team can draft a player who is likely to challenge them for a relevant spot in the roster the following year? I doubt it that all players were in for the tanking. Heck some may have not even been in the team the following year. It's something that's orchestrated from the FO and possibly the coach. The matter in which I find Philly's tanking offensive to the game is the way they've made it so blatantly obvious. It's not cheating since it's done within the NBA rules, but it's so cheesy it's videogame like. Sorry I don't respect it.

 

[Stifle Tower]

Nonsense. Tanking doesn't happen on the court. Why would players purposely play bad so the team can draft a player who is likely to challenge them for a relevant spot in the roster the following year? I doubt it that all players were in for the tanking. Heck some may have not even been in the team the following year. It's something that's orchestrated from the FO and possibly the coach. The matter in which I find Philly's tanking offensive to the game is the way they've made it so blatantly obvious. It's not cheating since it's done within the NBA rules, but it's so cheesy it's videogame like. Sorry I don't respect it.

Then you can't respect what the Jazz did last season by trading for 3 guys who should have never seen the court and starting the season with the worst PG rotation in the history of the NBA. Certainly not all the players for GS were in on the tanking: the D-League guys were fighting for their NBA lives. But you don't need them to be in on it. When you put 4-5 D-League players in the game together, they're not going to compete with many teams. Believe what you want, but I saw the GS starters hamming it up and dancing around on the sidelines when leads evaporated after turnovers, airballs and lackadaisical effort - and Coach Jackson smiling all the while. Maybe the team was just that loose and making fun of players sucking on the court was okay with everyone. But couple that with some questionable comments by the owner and I think you have a pretty obvious tank strategy promoted from the top on down.

I guess we differ on the Philly situation. Look at the Jazz; weren't most of us irate at Ty because we felt the young "core" should have been getting more minutes?
Remember, MCW hasn't played yet due to injury. But that core has tons of potential: Noel, Embiid, MCW, Wroten, McDaniels. MCW won ROY last year. Noel and McDaniels are in the mix this season for the award. Embiid will be a top candidate next year along with whoever else they get. I think they have more upside than Utah. We already know Favors and Hayward have skills, but they are not "franchise" players. Burks is a complementary piece. Burke and Kanter are backups at best. So we place our hope on either Exum and a top-10 pick next summer being franchise players or somehow replicating the Detroit Pistons' model of success, which was good for one championship.

 

[Jamezz]

Then you can't respect what the Jazz did last season by trading for 3 guys who should have never seen the court and starting the season with the worst PG rotation in the history of the NBA. Certainly not all the players for GS were in on the tanking: the D-League guys were fighting for their NBA lives. But you don't need them to be in on it. When you put 4-5 D-League players in the game together, they're not going to compete with many teams. Believe what you want, but I saw the GS starters hamming it up and dancing around on the sidelines when leads evaporated after turnovers, airballs and lackadaisical effort - and Coach Jackson smiling all the while. Maybe the team was just that loose and making fun of players sucking on the court was okay with everyone. But couple that with some questionable comments by the owner and I think you have a pretty obvious tank strategy promoted from the top on down.

I guess we differ on the Philly situation. Look at the Jazz; weren't most of us irate at Ty because we felt the young "core" should have been getting more minutes?
Remember, MCW hasn't played yet due to injury. But that core has tons of potential: Noel, Embiid, MCW, Wroten, McDaniels. MCW with ROY last year. Noel and McDaniels in the mix this season. Embiid will be a top candidate next year along with whoever else they get. I think they have more upside than Utah.

Well all those acquisitions better work out cause' if not they'll suck for years to come, with 10 2nd round picks in the next 4 years. They're gambling big in my opinion, we'll see...

 

[Stifle Tower]

Well all those acquisitions better work out cause' if not they'll suck for years to come, with 10 2nd round picks in the next 4 years. They're gambling big in my opinion, we'll see...

How is that different from Utah? If our picks don't work out, the Jazz will suck for the next 10 years and be in the lottery every season. I'd say we did ok, but not spectacular with Hayward and getting Favors for Deron. Burks has some talent. I think you can say the same about players like Wroten, MCW, Noel and McDaniels; they're just a few years behind in experience. Exum vs. Embiid: both were big gambles, neither is a lock to become a franchise player or an all-star.

With all those extra picks, Philly has a great chance of supplementing whatever talent they have, using "draft and stash" to take young int'l talent, etc. The second round is always a crap shoot. The more bullets you have to fire, the more chances you have of discovering a raw talent you can develop. Philly isn't ALWAYS going to just draft young guys and throw them out there. Just like Utah, they'll eventually add veterans here and there to fill holes. Those 2nd's can also be used in trades. Jazz went the value free agent route with Booker. I'm sure DL may try to find a couple more next summer. And just like Utah, Philly will probably have some draft misses along the way.

 

[Stifle Tower]

OK, Jamezz wins!

Just looked at the scoreboard. Dallas 73, Philadelphia 29 at halftime. And Dallas comes out and scores the first 5 points of the 2nd half. Let's see if this gets historic. Worst loss in NBA history is 68 pts. : 148-80 win by Cleveland over Miami.

 

[Ferguson_Mellochill]

If the Jazz wanted to trade out Burke and Kanter, lose more games this year, then draft a talent like Porzingis, I'd be on board.

I think our best future would be Exum / Hayward / a tough 3D bad*** / Porzingis / Favors, with Burks coming off the bench.

Now that I think of it though, the way Burke is playing may actually be helping us lose games.

 

[freakazoid]

GS tried to negotiate with KOC to keep their pick. Google it. When nothing happened, the team started losing a ton of games.

GS tried to keep their pick, but that had nothing to do with tanking. Their strategy from the very beginning was shoot for playoffs, but once that falls through, try to keep your pick. It was talked about on this board before the season started, and played out exactly as predicted. The timing may have been convenient for your theory, but you still can't explain an accidental win over a Denver team that was absolutely playing to win.

Nonsense. Tanking doesn't happen on the court. Why would players purposely play bad so the team can draft a player who is likely to challenge them for a relevant spot in the roster the following year? I doubt it that all players were in for the tanking. Heck some may have not even been in the team the following year. It's something that's orchestrated from the FO and possibly the coach.

This.

 

[The Midnight]

So.... about that tank.

 

[stitches]

So.... about that tank.

What about it?