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Religion and intelligence

Sorry but Islamic society has been intellectually poor for centuries. In the same way that Christian society was during the "Dark Ages". During both periods each respective society became much more pious. They found truth in books that contain very little that any rational person should regard as truth. They chose faith over evidence and they paid for it.

The biggest difference between Christian and Islamic society over the last few hundred years has been that one society has reaffirmed it's nonsensical beliefs whilst the other has increasingly secularized itself openly rejecting any part of its holy book that does not conform to modern sensibilities. One society adopted the sciences the other had pioneered and put a man on the moon whilst one adopted the weapons designed and manufactured by the other so that they could engage in sectarian feuding. One society is thriving the other is failing dramatically.


Read this book:

No_god_but_God_(Reza_Aslan_book)_US_cover.jpg


The best, most thorough, and accurate compilation on the history of Islam that I have ever read. Reza is well-known for his appearances on youtube and Fox defending the islamic faith, but he's a theologian with a PhD in the New Testament (along with two other degrees). Does a great job explaining what happened to the Islamic society that was once the forefront of scientific advancement.

It's quite depressing, from the perspective of a muslim.


EDIT: planning to sign out Fax from Sarajevo some time this week.
 
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This is why I generally find the discussion of God's existence unnecessary and uninteresting -- because I don't think God's existence can ever be shown empirically. In this way I am an agnostic in the strong sense.

Extremely insightful, and interesting.

And if you are someone who thinks that particular historical events or persons definitively demonstrate God's existence -- like the life of Jesus of Nazareth, Muḥammad, Siddhārtha Gautama, etc. -- then I will smile and nod, and be unconvinced. Don't get me wrong, I think their teachings are interesting. They all had great insight -- but I don't think that any of them are God, or even divinely inspired (well, okay, maybe divinely inspired in a certain sense, but we'd have to talk definitions).

I believe in God myself, and I am a muslim. Muhammad (as well as all of the prophets that came before him) was not God in any sense. With this portion of your post, are you merely saying that stories regarding Muhammad's divine inspiration are not enough to justify the existence of God, due to the difficulty verifying the veracity of his divine inspiration? Are you suggesting that divine inspiration is inherently impossible to verify? Just trying to figure out why you think they are not divinely inspired.

Rather than starting with God, I've found certain religious philosophy -- most notably process philosophy and theology -- compelling on more mundane levels. In particular:

-I regard the scientific "mechanistic" view of the universe to be sheer assumption. I think it far more likely that there is an "interior dimension" or "latent consciousness" in all matter. There is no neat dividing line between life and non-life, and I truly doubt that there is such a thing as completely "inert" or "dead" matter.
-Western philosophy largely ignored relations between entities in adopting a subject-predicate ontology for most of its history, and our science has been tinged with it. I am not an expert in any science, but I understand that this has done a lot of shifting at the higher levels of science today. But at the level of popular science understanding, there is still not nearly enough appreciation of how important relations really are. Process thought stresses that relations are actually all there are, that relations make up the related things, rather than the other way around. All of this also means that I think western identity categories suck.

And it's only after returning to what I regard as more basic -- and ultimately more important -- issues like the above, that we might be able re-introduce the idea of a God and talk about what that might mean. We could talk about Tillich's definition of God as our "ultimate concern" or "being itself." We could talk about process conceptions like God being the source of unrealized potentialities, or God as receiving and unifying the world's activity. Or we could talk about some other conception of what God might be, but with the understanding that we speak in metaphor, and that whether we call it "God" or not has no effect on the thing itself, although it may certainly have some effect on you. At this level of discussion, the theist/atheist distinction is largely meaningless.

great stuff, as always. I'm always delighted when I see your name show up in the activity feed.
 
Thank you.

So this "lure"? I suppose there is speculation as to it's nature?

Should I just read the rest of the wiki and come back when I have a real question?
Let me see what I can do to explain it. First, this aspect that is the "lure for feeling" is referred to by Whitehead as the "primordial nature." He has this to say about it:

God's role is not the combat of productive force with productive force, of destructive force with destructive force; it lies in the patient operation of the overpowering rationality of his conceptual harmonization. ... The primordial nature of God is the acquirement by creativity of a primordial character. ... He is the lure for feeling, the eternal urge of desire. His particular relevance to each creative act, as it arises from its own conditioned standpoint in the world, constitutes him the initial 'object of desire' establishing the initial phase of each subjective aim.

To unpack this, you could think of God's primordial nature as the ground of all possibilities in the universe, both realized and unrealized. God both presents us with possibilities and "lures" us toward the better choices. Again, "better" here has more to do with aesthetics than morality. Process theologians like to quote Whitehead's phrase "the creative advance into novelty" as the telos of the universe. I.e. God is luring us towards actualizing new possibilities, and particularly toward more rich and complex experiences (a human being, for instance, is capable of richer and more varied experiences than a tree). You might even boil it down to saying that God -- or least this aspect of God -- is Creativity with a capital "C."

That's the aspect that's eternal and unchanging. The other aspect -- the consequent nature -- receives the world's activity and changes because of it. So there is a sort of back-and-forth between God and the world: God presents us with possibilities, we actualize some of them, God receives that activity within itself and changes... and then we get back on the merry-go-round and do it again.

If you want more detail, you might read this post, which was my longwinded answer to GVC's question "What the **** is God for?" It gets pretty technical.


EDIT: Actually, I'm going to paste a section from the above-referenced post that might be helpful:

Each entity has some degree of freedom for self-determination. The initial aim which God provides is just that: an initial aim, a starting point. It's like God saying, "I think it would be good if you did this." We needn't, though. God's a little like a parent who wants us to become President... but we might go off and be an astronaut instead. That's okay. The point is that God guides us, but after all, we are free and self-determined beings, and our value is precisely in the fact that the eternal being is not determining us. Our value is our freedom and creativity in the way we live our lives.

Which brings me to the telos of the universe, which may have been implied but was not explicit in this final section: for Whitehead, the telos of the universe is the creative advance into novelty. There is no end -- which for a lot of people isn't very satisfying. But for Whitehead the universe is all about a constant process of growth, change, and creativity which has no end goal, other than the doing of it.

For myself, I like to pair this purpose with an intuition of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's: that the universe is moving ever further toward unity, and that "union differentiates." Just as the different cells of a complex organism are differentiated into heart cells, liver cells, etc., the parts of any organized whole perfect themselves and fulfill themselves through union in difference. As we unify, we specialize -- and we become more who we are by all doing what we do best, rather than be burdened by doing all the things we'd need to do if we were to live on our own without anyone else. We each become even more different by coming together, and more able as a unified whole to better the world. And God, with his initial aim, and his effect on every part of the universe, is that unifying force which makes us more ourselves.
 
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great stuff, as always. I'm always delighted when I see your name show up in the activity feed.
Thanks, I'm blushing!

I believe in God myself, and I am a muslim. Muhammad (as well as all of the prophets that came before him) was not God in any sense. With this portion of your post, are you merely saying that stories regarding Muhammad's divine inspiration are not enough to justify the existence of God, due to the difficulty verifying the veracity of his divine inspiration? Are you suggesting that divine inspiration is inherently impossible to verify? Just trying to figure out why you think they are not divinely inspired.
Well, now that I've just made my previous post, this statement will hopefully make more sense: we're all divinely inspired, if you want to put it that way. But on the process conception, we could also talk about divine inspiration in degrees. A person who was more divinely inspired would be someone who actualized the possibilities that were closer to the ones God was luring the person most strongly toward (or to use Whitehead's technical language, the person who most closely actualized God's "initial aim" for him/her). But there's no iron-clad litmus test for what is more or less divinely inspired; we simply have to judge that for ourselves. I would certainly say that on these terms, the three people I named were more divinely inspired than most. So was Gandhi. I just don't think they had any special access to God, or were different from the rest of us in kind -- only in degree.
 
I'm finding these concepts really interesting. So far what you've described I find completely non-offensive, whereas I find much about Christian theology highly offensive at it's core.

Is there a "Process Theology for Dummies" book or website?
 
I'm finding these concepts really interesting. So far what you've described I find completely non-offensive, whereas I find much about Christian theology highly offensive at it's core.

Is there a "Process Theology for Dummies" book or website?
Well, I do work at the Center for Process Studies, so one would hope I'd have suggestions.

The one book that we generally recommend for people who walk in the Center and want an introductory text is Process-Relational Philosophy: An Introduction to Alfred North Whitehead by Bob Mesle (Amazon link). Mesle is actually a process thinker who doesn't believe in God, but he's good at explaining process thought both with or without God. If you're really interested, that's your best bet for $15.

As for online resources, here are a few of the better ones, mostly taken from the Center's What is Process thought? page:

What is Process Thought? by Jay McDaniel (video series)
God Beyond Orthodoxy: Process Theology for the 21st Century by Philip Clayton
Process Thought: Its Value and Meaning To Me by geneticist Charles Birch
Process Theology by John Cobb
Process Philosophy at the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Alfred North Whitehead: Philosophy and metaphysics at Wikipedia (I wrote this section... and most of the rest of the article)
 
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Well, I do work at the Center for Process Studies, so one would hope I'd have suggestions.

The one book that we generally recommend for people who walk in the Center and want an introductory text is Process-Relational Philosophy: An Introduction to Alfred North Whitehead by Bob Mesle (Amazon link). Mesle is actually a process thinker who doesn't believe in God, but he's good at explaining process thought both with or without God. If you're really interested, that's your best bet for $15.

As for online resources, here are a few of the better ones, mostly taken from the Center's What is Process thought? page:

What is Process Thought? by Jay McDaniel (video series)
God Beyond Orthodoxy: Process Theology for the 21st Century by Philip Clayton
Process Thought: Its Value and Meaning To Me by geneticist Charles Birch
Process Theology by John Cobb
Process Philosophy at the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy
Alfred North Whitehead: Philosophy and metaphysics at Wikipedia (I wrote this section... and most of the rest of the article)

First let me say that you have me at an obvious disadvantage. You have introduced "process thought theology" to me and I have only read what you have posted and one of your links.(https://clayton.ctr4process.org/files/papers/GodBeyondOrthodoxy-r3.pdf)

Tbh I don't really see "the process" in it though this may due to my admitted ignorance. It seems to me that the whole thing is simply defining what is unknowable and then labeling that god. I would prefer the label be left as unknowable because that is what it is.

I can see two groups to which I think this probably has the greatest appeal.
1)Those that would like to rescue God and so their faith from whatever knowledge they have of the universe that has introduced doubt.
2) Those that have a strong desire to preserve the idea of some degree of freewill.

I will admit that I fall in the second camp. Freewill does seem to be less and less free and I am somewhat uncomfortable living in an increasingly fatalistic universe, but i am not ready to hang my hat on God, magic, or any other self serving concept in order to comfort myself.
 
Thanks, I'm blushing!


Well, now that I've just made my previous post, this statement will hopefully make more sense: we're all divinely inspired, if you want to put it that way. But on the process conception, we could also talk about divine inspiration in degrees. A person who was more divinely inspired would be someone who actualized the possibilities that were closer to the ones God was luring the person most strongly toward (or to use Whitehead's technical language, the person who most closely actualized God's "initial aim" for him/her). But there's no iron-clad litmus test for what is more or less divinely inspired; we simply have to judge that for ourselves. I would certainly say that on these terms, the three people I named were more divinely inspired than most. So was Gandhi. I just don't think they had any special access to God, or were different from the rest of us in kind -- only in degree.

I think these are useful ideas, and thanks for anyone who is thinking on these somewhat noble and unfortunately all too novel lines.

The final answer, or "iron-clad" test, is virtue. By this I mean a sort of utilitarianism in terms of how we use an idea or belief, in terms of what the results are. I don't discount the existence of evil, or virtue, and see a sort of taoist yin/yang aspect in it all. We could hardly really know what "virtue" is without knowing what "evil" is.

The biblical concepts of God and Satan are fundamental to the value of any purely reasonable, logical or philosophical beliefs. . . . . and I judge the beliefs by the use to which they are put. We have the capacity to create our own schema of good or evil. What we lack is the power to make our beliefs "true" in a universal or ultimate sense. We ascribe to "God" that power, because the concept of God essentially involves that power, either in creating the reality or acting upon real principles that exist in nature, and are endowed by nature as "good".

I don't think we have come close to actually being "good" in ourselves, and resolve to look to hope that there is something "good" in existence, above us. Meanwhile, I believe in doing the best I know, just like any "progressive".
 
First let me say that you have me at an obvious disadvantage. You have introduced "process thought theology" to me and I have only read what you have posted and one of your links.(https://clayton.ctr4process.org/files/papers/GodBeyondOrthodoxy-r3.pdf)

Tbh I don't really see "the process" in it though this may due to my admitted ignorance. It seems to me that the whole thing is simply defining what is unknowable and then labeling that god. I would prefer the label be left as unknowable because that is what it is.

I can see two groups to which I think this probably has the greatest appeal.
1)Those that would like to rescue God and so their faith from whatever knowledge they have of the universe that has introduced doubt.
2) Those that have a strong desire to preserve the idea of some degree of freewill.

I will admit that I fall in the second camp. Freewill does seem to be less and less free and I am somewhat uncomfortable living in an increasingly fatalistic universe, but i am not ready to hang my hat on God, magic, or any other self serving concept in order to comfort myself.
Well, first I'd challenge you on the two psychological motivations you pose. Process theology may well appeal to people like that, but it might well be some other motivation -- like a desire to find meaningfulness in life, or even just a desire to understand the universe better. I think I may have been drawn to process thought partly for the former reason, but now I'm in it more for the latter one. A lot of the metaphysics just makes more sense to me than anything else I've heard.

To use the Wikipedia definition, metaphysics is the branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being. It's often scoffed at nowadays because metaphysical theories aren't empirically testable; you're reflecting this attitude when you say that "It seems to me that the whole thing is simply defining what is unknowable and then labeling that god. I would prefer the label be left as unknowable because that is what it is."

But the thing is, everyone has attitudes and assumptions about "the unknowable," even if they remain unstated. To quote Whitehead, "Every scientific man in order to preserve his reputation has to say he dislikes metaphysics. What he means is he dislikes having his metaphysics criticized." To go back to my favorite example of a metaphysical belief, I really think that there is an "interior dimension" to all matter, that there is no such thing as fully "dead" matter (although "matter" itself is a problematic concept, which I'll get to later, but you understand what I mean). This is not a testable theory, because it's not something we can access -- even for humans, we can only see the behavior resulting from their mental lives, but we can't jump in their heads and experience what they're experiencing in the way they're experiencing it.

So, what's the significance of holding a belief in "panexperientialism," to use David Ray Griffin's term? Nothing too specific, but more of a general attitude and outlook toward the universe. As you say, it certainly undercuts determinism. It also tends to steer one a little further away from a purely human-centered worldview -- doubly so if you buy into the constitutive interrelatedness that process thought stresses, that we are a sum of our relations to other entities, not independent of them.

The point is that I don't think people come to process thought purely out of some desperate psychological need/desire. Frankly, we could look at any metaphysical/philosophical/religious position and come up with psychological reasons why the person holds it. But while it's helpful to examine that aspect of things now and again, I'd rather look past motivations and see if the systems and beliefs themselves make sense.

While I'm here, I should also explain the "process" aspect a bit, since you mentioned it, although I'll be getting kinda technical here. Among other names, process thought is sometimes also called "process-relational thought/philosophy/theology." I've already explained the "relational" part a little bit. The "process" aspect points to a belief in the primacy of becoming over being. Western philosophy has always considered being to be the primary ontological mode/category: there are beings/things that persist and change (this is tied up with the previously mentioned subject-predicate ontology: there are things with qualities that can be predicated of them).

But in process thought, being is an abstraction, and becoming is primary. A given thing -- like a person -- is conceived of as a series of momentary events strung together. Each event in this series "inherits" its past event, including its motivations and desires, and influences the following event. Whitehead has a nice phrase: "perpetually perishing." Each event dies almost as soon as it arises. But it is these momentary events that are the "really real things," while an enduring person, for instance, is an abstraction achieved by conflating these events.

This may sound like largely a semantic difference, but it really changes the metaphysical/philosophical outlook and gets around a lot of philosophical problems. A subjective-predicate ontology always had the problem of explaining, for instance, what it could mean for there to be a thing without qualities. It opens the door to the idea that "substance" and "matter" are crappy categories for understanding the nature of reality. And when you accept that "matter" as a concept sucks, you start looking at the universe in a very different way. And although I am certainly no physicist, my understanding is that modern physics has already done away with matter as a key concept.

Returning to God briefly, I'll say again that for me, God isn't the most important part of all this. Everything I've just explained can be held without a belief in any kind of God. Further, as you pointed out, a particular formulation of "God" might diverge so greatly from what the word usually signifies that it can be seen as an entirely arbitrary naming/identification. I'm very sympathetic to that perspective. If you don't like the word or the baggage that comes with it, then just don't use it. Just talk about the nature of the universe instead.

I'll leave it there for now, as I've blathered quite enough and have probably wandered a little far afield.
 
Another short thing. Someone asked me in a rep comment what I thought of Dawkins' The God Delusion. I had actually never looked at it until a few years ago, when I took Zuckerman's class on atheism and secularity. In a nutshell, I wasn't that impressed. Dawkins only engages the most boneheaded aspects of religion and theology, and avoids discussing nuanced thinkers like the plague. He assumes from the beginning that belief in God is an empirically testable hypothesis, which I think is baloney. He discounts Stephen Jay Gould's concept of non-overlapping magisteria because it fits his agenda and because he apparently doesn't believe anything good has come or can come out of religion -- clearly a false supposition. I have my own criticisms of NOMA, but they are not free from any nuance as Dawkins' objections are.

This is not to say that Dawkins has nothing at all worthwhile to say. I especially appreciated his views on religion and children, which I'd rarely heard anyone discuss so explicitly:

“A child is not a Christian child, not a Muslim child, but a child of Christian parents or a child of Muslim parents. This latter nomenclature, by the way, would be an excellent piece of consciousness-raising for the children themselves. A child who is told she is a 'child of Muslim parents' will immediately realize that religion is something for her to choose—or reject—when she becomes old enough to do so.”
I think this is entirely correct. We do not regard children as responsible for their own actions in the US until age 18. Well, we can argue about the exact age, but I don't see why we should regard such beliefs as firmly their own, when we know that most children adopt the religious beliefs of their parents. I think they have to be old enough to think more independently before we start labeling them as religious.

But for the most part, serious theologians -- and particularly the more liberal theologians -- ignore Dawkins, because he hasn't said anything worth responding to. It's all been said many times before (like in Bertrand Russell's Why I Am Not a Christian, just to name a book off the top of my head), but Dawkins' book exploded onto the popular consciousness because it was the right time and place for it to do so -- not to mention the rather provocative title. But the actual merit of the book as a whole is rather slim, form my perspective. Yes, some aspects of some religion are ridiculous, Mr. Dawkins, we already know that. Anything else?
 


I don't think that Whiteheads quote "Every scientific man in order to preserve his reputation has to say he dislikes metaphysics. What he means is he dislikes having his metaphysics criticized." is a fair representation of things. I think that scientific thought demands that our individual conceptions of the nature of things be criticized. It seems to me that those that value scientific thought the most welcome the criticism. Everyone does have attitudes and assumptions about the unknowable but not everyone believes that their own assumptions or conceptions are correct or worse the "truth". To a scientific mind these things remain assumptions whereas religion converts these assumptions into faith.

As for my own assumptions they actually line up quite perfectly with the "Process" part of your own. I would add that my vague understanding of quantum mechanics lead me to think that a momentary event is not directly inherited from the one that presupposes it but that the probability of a momentary event is. I don't think that this is a rare position.

I think where we differ is in the relational aspect of your position(which is I assume why you started and focused on it). From a scientific standpoint it seems that what you are describing as God is a conception of time. Time in the sense of the relationship of one moment to the next. I understand that your conception of god is larger than just this single concept but time does seem to be the central premise.

I question the declaration of a sort of will that you place on time: "God is luring us towards actualizing new possibilities, and particularly toward more rich and complex experiences". I have issues with the "consequent nature" mostly because it seems to be predicated on the "eternal nature".

As long as this remains metaphysical thought it is of little consequence. As soon as one of us decides that our respective metaphysical thoughts constitute metaphysical knowledge it becomes consequential. It becomes religion.
 
Another short thing. Someone asked me in a rep comment what I thought of Dawkins' The God Delusion. I had actually never looked at it until a few years ago, when I took Zuckerman's class on atheism and secularity. In a nutshell, I wasn't that impressed. Dawkins only engages the most boneheaded aspects of religion and theology, and avoids discussing nuanced thinkers like the plague. He assumes from the beginning that belief in God is an empirically testable hypothesis, which I think is baloney. He discounts Stephen Jay Gould's concept of non-overlapping magisteria because it fits his agenda and because he apparently doesn't believe anything good has come or can come out of religion -- clearly a false supposition. I have my own criticisms of NOMA, but they are not free from any nuance as Dawkins' objections are.

This is not to say that Dawkins has nothing at all worthwhile to say. I especially appreciated his views on religion and children, which I'd rarely heard anyone discuss so explicitly:


I think this is entirely correct. We do not regard children as responsible for their own actions in the US until age 18. Well, we can argue about the exact age, but I don't see why we should regard such beliefs as firmly their own, when we know that most children adopt the religious beliefs of their parents. I think they have to be old enough to think more independently before we start labeling them as religious.

But for the most part, serious theologians -- and particularly the more liberal theologians -- ignore Dawkins, because he hasn't said anything worth responding to. It's all been said many times before (like in Bertrand Russell's Why I Am Not a Christian, just to name a book off the top of my head), but Dawkins' book exploded onto the popular consciousness because it was the right time and place for it to do so -- not to mention the rather provocative title. But the actual merit of the book as a whole is rather slim, form my perspective. Yes, some aspects of some religion are ridiculous, Mr. Dawkins, we already know that. Anything else?

I have not read The God Delusion and I have no intention to. I think if you want to read a good book by an evolutionary biologist you should you should first try his books on that subject. Not that anyone should be confined to their area of expertise but Dawkins has much more interesting things to say about life than he does about god imo. I would recommend both The Selfish Gene and Ancestor's Tale. He did a great job in helping a lay person like myself find a greater understanding of evolutionary processes.
 
You all are way smarter than me
 
I have not read The God Delusion and I have no intention to. I think if you want to read a good book by an evolutionary biologist you should you should first try his books on that subject. Not that anyone should be confined to their area of expertise but Dawkins has much more interesting things to say about life than he does about god imo. I would recommend both The Selfish Gene and Ancestor's Tale. He did a great job in helping a lay person like myself find a greater understanding of evolutionary processes.

How about "The greatest Show on Earth"? I find it very simple and enjoyable to read.
 
To a scientific mind these things remain assumptions whereas religion converts these assumptions into faith.
So your definition of religion is having faith in XYZ unproveable beliefs and assumptions? First, I'm not crazy about that definition. Second, not all beliefs (religious or otherwise) have anything to do with empirical testing. Ethics doesn't. Believing that killing is wrong has nothing to do with science.

But most of all, I think you're fooling yourself when you say there's a difference in kind between religion and science. Ideally, both types of assumptions/beliefs are open to change based on new evidence or experience. If that is the case, then explain to me the difference between an assumption/hypothesis and a belief? I mean, you can define "belief/faith" as tied to stupid obstinacy if you want, but that doesn't mean that all people who say they believe something will continue believing it even if it gets disproved to their face.

As soon as one of us decides that our respective metaphysical thoughts constitute metaphysical knowledge it becomes consequential. It becomes religion.
See above. I'm not sure what you see as being the difference between "thoughts/hypotheses/assumptions" and "knowledge." To me they amount to the same thing: they are how we think the universe works, until we are sure that they're wrong. "Religion" here seems to be code for "wrong; believing in things despite contrary evidence."
 
So your definition of religion is having faith in XYZ unproveable beliefs and assumptions? First, I'm not crazy about that definition.

I did not define faith as an essential component of religion. Religious people have done that. They might disagree that things that they have faith in are unprovable but they have yet to provide me with any evidence that they are.

Second, not all beliefs (religious or otherwise) have anything to do with empirical testing. Ethics doesn't. Believing that killing is wrong has nothing to do with science.

You state that killing is wrong as if it is some universal truth. I kill **** to survive and so do you. I doubt that you believe that killing is wrong period. I would even hazard that you don't believe killing people is always wrong. I do believe that killing another human without due cause is wrong but this is only because I am human. I evolved a sense of empathy. It helped my ancestors survive. Ethics are an instinct. How are they not within the purview of science?

But most of all, I think you're fooling yourself when you say there's a difference in kind between religion and science. Ideally, both types of assumptions/beliefs are open to change based on new evidence or experience. If that is the case, then explain to me the difference between an assumption/hypothesis and a belief? I mean, you can define "belief/faith" as tied to stupid obstinacy if you want, but that doesn't mean that all people who say they believe something will continue believing it even if it gets disproved to their face.

First I did not define(or at least I did not mean to) faith as tied to stupid obstinacy, I said that stupid obstinacy is a common effect of faith. A majority of Americans that declare having a religious faith for instance also do not think evolution happened despite the evidence. Is there really any other cause for their obstinacy other than faith?

As far as defining the difference between assumption/hypothesis/belief I honestly think you're being a little glib. The difference is self evident to most people that use the English language. Although they are all closely related they all imply different levels of certainty. Further each implies a different set of steps to be taken in order to verify them.

See above. I'm not sure what you see as being the difference between "thoughts/hypotheses/assumptions" and "knowledge." To me they amount to the same thing: they are how we think the universe works, until we are sure that they're wrong. "Religion" here seems to be code for "wrong; believing in things despite contrary evidence."

Religion can lead to believing in something despite the evidence but not always so. Religion is at least believing despite a lack of evidence. You would like to equate my assumptions about the nature of reality to a religious view but I have no faith in them. In fact they are barely assumptions. Assumptions implies that I have an expectation. I don't. I simply think that maybe I understand enough about the universe that my assumptions might be a somewhat like reality.
 
Decline in religiosity is direct correlation to use in wave technology. Cellular phones fried God out of you.

Laugh like **** at anyone claiming intelligence disproves God. Smells like desperate to make one self comfortable with their wish to be true atheist but cannot because disvowing God makes their gut wretch because they know he is true.
 
I did not define faith as an essential component of religion. Religious people have done that. They might disagree that things that they have faith in are unprovable but they have yet to provide me with any evidence that they are.
Who, exactly? I don't like to discuss people and groups in the abstract. Yes, there are lots of religious people who believe things that I think are silly, like that God can perform supernatural miracles. That doesn't mean that it's a part of religion per se, any more than "faith," however you'd like to define it. There are plenty of liberal religious people who don't consider "faith" as you apparently understand it to be a virtue.

You state that killing is wrong as if it is some universal truth. I kill **** to survive and so do you. I doubt that you believe that killing is wrong period. I would even hazard that you don't believe killing people is always wrong. I do believe that killing another human without due cause is wrong but this is only because I am human. I evolved a sense of empathy. It helped my ancestors survive. Ethics are an instinct. How are they not within the purview of science?
I never said that killing was wrong. Read what I said again. In fact, an oft-quoted Whitehead passage is: "Whether or no it be for the general good, life is robbery. It is at this point that with life morals become acute. The robber requires justification." Of course we're killing things all the time. I was giving it as an example of a non-empirical question, not making an ethical statement.

As for "ethics are an instinct," I don't think I buy that. I have an instinct to have sex with people I find attractive. And you're saying the fact that I don't seek to screw every attractive person I see is... what? A competing instinct? Doesn't seem like quite the same thing. What is the empirical test for deciding which "instincts" are "wrong" and which are "right"? I'm just not seeing how ethics is a "science." It seems to me that it falls much more neatly under the heading of "philosophy."

First I did not define(or at least I did not mean to) faith as tied to stupid obstinacy, I said that stupid obstinacy is a common effect of faith. A majority of Americans that declare having a religious faith for instance also do not think evolution happened despite the evidence. Is there really any other cause for their obstinacy other than faith?
The thing I don't get here is that you're talking about "faith" as if it is some kind of living entity, or at least something separate from the individual beliefs themselves. If I have a belief that evolution is false despite evidence, then that's a dumb belief. According to what you're saying here, what's sustaining belief is not some other sort of competing evidence (e.g. biblical passages, church teaching, etc.), it's this mysterious thing called "faith." Well, if faith is the reason (or to use your word, "cause") for said obstinacy, then you are indeed saying that faith is "stupid obstinacy" -- it is the cause for believing in silly things despite contrary evidence. Read what you've written here and tell me how else I'm supposed to interpret what you're saying.

As far as defining the difference between assumption/hypothesis/belief I honestly think you're being a little glib. The difference is self evident to most people that use the English language. Although they are all closely related they all imply different levels of certainty. Further each implies a different set of steps to be taken in order to verify them.
If you're saying that they're all the same thing, but along a continuum of certainty, then fine, we basically agree. I just don't see the difference in kind. Even certainties should be changeable given the proper evidence/experience. But at the same time, not all assumptions/hypotheses/beliefs are subject to empirical testing.

Religion can lead to believing in something despite the evidence but not always so. Religion is at least believing despite a lack of evidence. You would like to equate my assumptions about the nature of reality to a religious view but I have no faith in them. In fact they are barely assumptions. Assumptions implies that I have an expectation. I don't. I simply think that maybe I understand enough about the universe that my assumptions might be a somewhat like reality.
I'm still not seeing how this is different in kind from anyone else. We all think we have some understanding of the universe, and we all think that understanding is somewhat like reality. What's your point? Do you think I have more "faith" in my understanding than you do? And if you think I do, then what exactly is the resulting effect that you're imagining?

You seem very hung up on this word "faith," which is not a word I use, because I think it carries way too much negative baggage -- something you should understand, since you don't seem able to define "faith" in anything but a negative way. I'm with you there. We all agree that a lot of people believe stupid things and cite "faith" as a reason. But religion does not require such "faith."

And no, I'm not trying to "equate your assumptions about the nature of reality to a religious view." Rather, you are trying to equate religion with "faith," and then becoming annoyed when I say that religion doesn't require faith any more than you do. So can we drop this whole "faith" line, since neither of us thinks it is a positive concept?
 
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