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Women and Religion/Priesthood

I'm not religious at all. But if you are a member of a church and you disagree with what that church teaches find yourself a new ****ing church. Am I right? If there was a "true" church god certainly wouldn't be changing anything just because you bitched about it.
 
I'm not religious at all. But if you are a member of a church and you disagree with what that church teaches find yourself a new ****ing church. Am I right? If there was a "true" church god certainly wouldn't be changing anything just because you bitched about it.

I don't see why. There are several churches in the US who have female clergy.

As for Beer's point of view, people who push LDS Church aren't going to move the Church. They are just going to push themselves out of the church.

Exactly. The LDS church views themselves as the restored gospel and lead by the Lord. The LDS church changing due to political winds and societal morals would directly go against that.
 
Exactly. The LDS church views themselves as the restored gospel and lead by the Lord. The LDS church changing due to political winds and societal morals would directly go against that.

But if God told the prophet it should be changed, well then...
 
Exactly. The LDS church views themselves as the restored gospel and lead by the Lord. The LDS church changing due to political winds and societal morals would directly go against that.

This is also why I never understood things like Sunstone and other such groups. Petitioning the church leadership for a chance is not the way it's done and does not (should not?) ever work. It isn't a vote kind of thing, and it isn't about garnering enough support for your cause.
 
But if God told the prophet it should be changed, well then...

I'm not saying a religions shouldn't or cant change. It just can't change due to political pressure imo. If the leaders see fit then ok, but if its because of some incessant bitching thats different.
 
Right, so since the LDS prophet talks to God they can just leave it up to him to whisper in the prophets ear that God wants the change for God's own reasons.
 
Right, so since the LDS prophet talks to God they can just leave it up to him to whisper in the prophets ear that God wants the change for God's own reasons.

According to them yes. Better gods reasons (I do not believe in god fyi) than some annoying womans.
 
According to them yes. Better gods reasons (I do not believe in god fyi) than some annoying womans.

The LDS Church is not actually a theocracy, in theory. It has always embraced a principle called "common consent". God can speak, God can jump up and down and shout whatever He wants, but the members get to choose whether they will accept. . . . .

Even in the Bible, the Ten Commandments were presented as from God, but there was a process of establishing the peoples' covenant of acceptance. The Israelites chose to accept the Ten Commandments and the Law in general, as a covenant.

I should resist philosophical meanderings, but I rarely do. . . . it's not going to make the news if say a ward voted against sustaining a new bishop. There will be questions asked. . . . the ward members may offer some reasons. . . but I bet they get another bishop pretty quick.

That is part of the reason, I believe, the "leaders" try to put a lot of stress on the concept of following the Leader. Because it could just get really, like really, dicey to make any changes in the organization at all. You're "supposed" to raise your hand to sustain whatever they say or do. . . .

I know of one branch that went on strike over a leadership change. That event was essentially my fault because I could have said something about it and prevented it from happening. Those members had more guts than I did, and they did get a new leader. It didn't make the News, not even the Church News.

In the LDS Church, women have long had some areas of special calling or responsibility. From the beginning there was a women's organization called Relief Society. Women in Mormonism have always spoken in Church meetings. Joseph Smith's wife Emma did not fit the victim profile at all, and on occasions she gave Joseph clearly stated instructions and demands. The "Word of Wisdom" came after she was so disgusted about cleaning up after the "priesthood" meeting, finding tobacco chaws spit all over, the place reeking in cigarette smoke and such. . . .

Properly understood, the "Priesthood" in the Mormon concept is supposed to be a "servant" position, not a dictatorial one.

I wonder sometimes about the problems following from a principle of "universal priesthood" being a males-only thing. I hazard questions about how even the societal expectation of all boys being ordained in the Aaronic Priesthood really corresponds to the Biblical record.

I think it is wrong to systematically move young men through the qourums according to age limits regardless of actually relevant factors like attitude or willingness to "serve", and how it transforms the "priesthood" into a "status essential" of some kind.

But I have to come down at least on the notion that if there is a God, and "priesthood" is something defined by that God, or given by that God, that comes from that God, I am sure He is the one who actually controls the issues.

A Church may offer "Priesthood" as a symbol of some kind within it's organization, but only God can make it His. If you believe Churches must conform to some larger societal notion of organization and structure, you don't actually believe in freedom of religion or conscience.

LDS women who want the "priesthood" seem to me somewhat comparable to the city slicker cousins who covet the old family farm. The country cousins generally would be glad to trade places. They know it's a lot of work, and not really much glory.
 
The LDS Church is not actually a theocracy, in theory. It has always embraced a principle called "common consent". God can speak, God can jump up and down and shout whatever He wants, but the members get to choose whether they will accept. . . . .

Accept? Yes. Modify? No. They don't get a proposal that so and so should be stake president and if they don't accept it there isn't a general election to determine who will be stake president, with nominations and everything, for example.
 
Accept? Yes. Modify? No. They don't get a proposal that so and so should be stake president and if they don't accept it there isn't a general election to determine who will be stake president, with nominations and everything, for example.

Furthermore on this point, "sustaining" as the LDS church calls it, has anyone ever seen someone object? I know that I have not. Yes the membership votes for it but it is just a formality.
 
I'm not religious at all. But if you are a member of a church and you disagree with what that church teaches find yourself a new ****ing church. Am I right? If there was a "true" church god certainly wouldn't be changing anything just because you bitched about it.

Aren't the members of the religion supposed to foster change within their own group? At least that's what I hear from people who hate the Muslims.

I'll will say there are certain things certain religions do that make me have less respect for them. Being sexist is one of them.
 
Exactly. The LDS church views themselves as the restored gospel and lead by the Lord. The LDS church changing due to political winds and societal morals would directly go against that.

Does that explain why blacks weren't allowed into the Priesthood until the late 70s? To add to another point, if people believe that change wasn't due to political pressure and societal morals, they are deluding themselves IMO.
 
Does that explain why blacks weren't allowed into the Priesthood until the late 70s? To add to another point, if people believe that change wasn't due to political pressure and societal morals, they are deluding themselves IMO.

And you are entitled to your opinion. I was wondering how long it would take someone to hold up the one scenario that seems to fit their argument.
 
Furthermore on this point, "sustaining" as the LDS church calls it, has anyone ever seen someone object? I know that I have not. Yes the membership votes for it but it is just a formality.

Quick story. I have seen people raise their hand to object, but only once did I see one that really stuck and caused a real hubbub. It lead to a big investigation that caused 1 person to go to jail and several excommunications. We were new to a ward one place we lived and they were sustaining a new member of the stake presidency and one young woman (like in her early 20's married with a kid) just broke down and when they asked for people who objected she stood up raising her hand, in tears. Long story short, it turns out the guy who was being sustained had been a counselor in her bishopric when she was a pre-teen and he had molested her and several other young children and teens in that capacity. It was a crazy experience I have never seen before or since.
 
Does that explain why blacks weren't allowed into the Priesthood until the late 70s? To add to another point, if people believe that change wasn't due to political pressure and societal morals, they are deluding themselves IMO.

This is where the example of revelation comes into play that talks about God revealing only what His children are prepared for and can relate to. So he wouldn't have revelations during the time of Christ relating to internet usage, but he would now. So His assessment was that His children were not ready for that particular revelation until that time.
 
Does that explain why blacks weren't allowed into the Priesthood until the late 70s? To add to another point, if people believe that change wasn't due to political pressure and societal morals, they are deluding themselves IMO.

I reject the logical construct behind your opinion here and on the "sexist" thing I guess growing up in the example of a mother who absolutely had no hate has distorted my reason.

You need to cut some slack for other people on this.

The Mormons were run out of Missouri in part because they were anti-slavery, and they required their southern slave-holding converts to give their slaves their freedom as a condition of baptism. A contingent of those freed blacks came to Utah on the first wagon train led by Brigham Young.

It's hard for most Mormons or non-Mormons to sort all the threads just right, probably no one ever will. My grandfather led a mission to re-open South Africa to Mormon preaching in 1898, and sent a letter to the Salt Lake headquarters asking about how to deal with the issue of blacks who might want to be members. I have a copy of the reply, a rather terse response. The leaders were afraid of being just kicked out, again: "Do you see the same conditions of prejudice there as we have here?"

That was political pressure just as surely as Jimmy Carter.
 
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