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CP3 on John Stockton

Alfalfa said:
A backup who only played a few minutes a game with Malone.
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Actually, by the mid-90s, Sloan was already staggering Stockton's minutes, and Eisley probably played at least half his minutes with Malone. Try again.

Alfalfa said:
He played more minutes in that one season in NY where he averaged more assists a game.
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If you look at his his assists/36 minutes, his best season, and 3 of his four best, were in NYC. Try again.

Alfalfa said:
Also, that's a weird example. Take Nash/Stoudemire. Do you think if Nash didn't have such a perfect PnR partner he'd average as many assists? Of course not.
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His best year in terms of assists/36 was 2010-11, with that giant of ballplayer, Channing Frye, as the primary PF on the Suns.


Alfalfa said:
I'm not making a divine proclamation. There is no physical law that says if you have a good PF, your assists will skyrocket.
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There's also no evidence for it, either.

There is some internet loudmouth making claims he can't back up, but I don't think that is the same thing.
 
I wonder what kind of advanced stats Stockton had.
VORP and win shares and the like.

Alfalfa made a decent point about Stockton never being considered the best player in the league in a given year.. But maybe he should have been. Maybe they didn't use advanced stats back then and didn't really understand how important Stockton really was.

Maybe if you are averaging 17 points and 14.5 assists and 2.7 steals while shooting 52%/42%/82% from the field/3/free throw line like Stockton did in the 89-90 season and also having great VORP and win shares and stuff then maybe you should be considered the best player in the league that year by some. Maybe he was simply under rated and underappreciated and that's why he didn't win any mvp's or anything. Plus Jordan was in the league during Stockton's best years.

In 95 he shot 54% from the field and 45% from three with an efg of 61% and took his team to the finals.

Cp3 never sniffed efficiency numbers like Stockton's. He had 1 year over 50% shooting (50.3 to be exact) and one year over 40% from three (41%). Stockton shot over 50% in 12 seasons (57.4 in one season). Over 40 from 3 in 7 seasons.

Hell based off those shooting percentages you could argue that Malone held him back. If he weren't feeding malone so much and looking to get his more then maybe he could have averaged way more points and his game would have been more "sexy"

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NBA is biased against Utah Jazz players. They never get as much recognition as they deserve.

I would state the reason Stockton and Malone are so well-known is because they were Michael Jordan's toughest adversaries.

Also Stockton was a humble, quiet man. He didn't act a fool to bring attention to himself. But as the YouTube video shows, he was respected and feared by the Legends.

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fishonjazz said:
I wonder what kind of advanced stats Stockton had.
VORP and win shares and the like.

Alfalfa made a decent point about Stockton never being considered the best player in the league in a given year.. But maybe he should have been. Maybe they didn't use advanced stats back then and didn't really understand how important Stockton really was.

Maybe if you are averaging 17 points and 14.5 assists and 2.7 steals while shooting 52%/42%/82% from the field/3/free throw line like Stockton did in the 89-90 season and also having great VORP and win shares and stuff then maybe you should be considered the best player in the league that year by some. Maybe he was simply under rated and underappreciated and that's why he didn't win any mvp's or anything. Plus Jordan was in the league during Stockton's best years.

In 95 he shot 54% from the field and 45% from three with an efg of 61% and took his team to the finals.

Cp3 never sniffed efficiency numbers like Stockton's. He had 1 year over 50% shooting (50.3 to be exact) and one year over 40% from three (41%). Stockton shot over 50% in 12 seasons (57.4 in one season). Over 40 from 3 in 7 seasons.

Hell based off those shooting percentages you could argue that Malone held him back. If he weren't feeding malone so much and looking to get his more then maybe he could have averaged way more points and his game would have been more "sexy"

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A software needs to be developed to analyze older games on film so we can compile that information.

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fishonjazz said:
Alfalfa made a decent point about Stockton never being considered the best player in the league in a given year.. But maybe he should have been. Maybe they didn't use advanced stats back then and didn't really understand how important Stockton really was.
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The advanced stats are available now. While Stockton was in the top 20 in many years, he was never first in any of them.

Also, he made All NBA 1st team twice, and 2nd team several times, so he certainly got some respect from his peers at the time.
 
One Brow said:
The advanced stats are available now. While Stockton was in the top 20 in many years, he was never first in any of them.

Also, he made All NBA 1st team twice, and 2nd team several times, so he certainly got some respect from his peers at the time.
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Actually I think Andy Bailey did some of this stuff on his twitter recently and Stockton was regularly in the top 5-10 during his prime. He was truly one of the elite players in the league by advanced statistics. It's just that people didn't use or understand them back then. I believe he was #4 several times.
 
Look everyone, we all know the only measure of a player that matters is scoring scoring scoring. Oh and shoe sales. Stockton didn't score and didn't sell shoes. I'm shocked he ever made an all Star game with ****** stats like that. What a loser.
 
Can we partially blame Sloan, that Jazz did not won the title in 97 and 98 because his attitude was "3 point shot is BAD, 2 point shot is GOD-LIKE"?
While watching those games from the Youtube, then it seems, that Bulls was much more versatile-dangerous from the 3 point line - it was not wise to leave long distance when guarding Jordan, Pippen, Harper, Kerr and Kukoc. IMHO at least Stockton, Hornacek, Russell and maybe even Foster should have shoot more 3 pointers. I have not seen those players close in real life - but i presume, that at least when in practise they would hit 3 pointers with ease i.e they would not hurt their arm muscles etc.
 
I don't think anyone will ever top Stockton's assist record. If someone does it likely won't happen in my lifetime.

We might see someone with the crazy assist averages. We might see someone with the career longevity. But I don't think we'll see someone with BOTH ever again.
 
lauriandres said:
Can we partially blame Sloan, that Jazz did not won the title in 97 and 98 because his attitude was "3 point shot is BAD, 2 point shot is GOD-LIKE"?
While watching those games from the Youtube, then it seems, that Bulls was much more versatile-dangerous from the 3 point line - it was not wise to leave long distance when guarding Jordan, Pippen, Harper, Kerr and Kukoc. IMHO at least Stockton, Hornacek, Russell and maybe even Foster should have shoot more 3 pointers. I have not seen those players close in real life - but i presume, that at least when in practise they would hit 3 pointers with ease i.e they would not hurt their arm muscles etc.
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In 1998, there were two games where the Bulls shot many more shots from the 3 than the Jazz, games 1 and 5. Those were the two we won. Overall, the Bulls shot 29.5% from the 3, we shot 21.7%. Neither offense benefited from a lot of 3s.
 
lauriandres said:
Can we partially blame Sloan, that Jazz did not won the title in 97 and 98 because his attitude was "3 point shot is BAD, 2 point shot is GOD-LIKE"?
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We had the best pick in role dual in the history of the game so Sloan down played the 3 point shot and catered to that pick and role stuff. But in recent years 3 point shooting has improved in the league and two point pick and roles have declined. So with that in mind right now you have to go with your strengths, which is NOT our 3 point shooting.. By the way, we got hosed on winning one of those series when they counted a 3 point shot that was counted that shouldn't have and one that was made that should have been counted! End of story!
 
CP3 is a P****. He has only played 83% of available games opposed to Stockton who played 98.5% of games available. Stockton played through injury because he was a man, unlike CP3. Not to mention Stockton was a much better point guard than CP3 will ever be.
 
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