What's new
By:
Filters

First take on ESPN debate. Better player Stockton or Thomas? Heated debate.

Thee jazz fan said:
One on one the Glove. Stockton may have been the better help defender there was no one better at getting deflections on someone else’s man.
Click to expand...
But who was the better TRUE PG defender? That's what really matters true PG! Arbitrarily assigning attributes you think they should have to play a certain style so you can justify them being better!

Also your interpretation of my take on Stockton is wayyyyyy off. But that's kind of on point for you.
 
Ron Mexico said:
But who was the better TRUE PG defender? That's what really matters true PG! Arbitrarily assigning attributes you think they should have to play a certain style so you can justify them being better!
Click to expand...
Never said Stockton was a better defender, just pointing out that in his prime he was damn good on that side of the ball.
Ron Mexico said:
Also your interpretation of my take on Stockton is wayyyyyy off. But that's kind of on point for you.
Click to expand...
No it’s on ****ing *** point!! You ****ing said he wasn’t a game changer
 
John would be perfect for this team right now. That's a finals visit instead of Conley with our team right now
 
For what it's worth, advanced stats love Stockton. Box +/- stats and Value Over Replacement Player, but also Winshares would make him not just one of the greatest PGs of all time, but one of the greatest players of all time. Like top 10 of all time. And Box +/- skews towards players in their prime right now, because they haven't had their declining years bring it down yet.

Here's the top 25 of all time in Box +/-:

Untitled.png


Chris Paul and Magic are quite close, and Stockton is just behind them. Isiah Thomas is several tiers below both of them. Nash was close to Stockton's level offensively, but a bad defender and is punished for it. Stockton was an elite defender according to advanced stats, and a tier above Payton. Curry's peak is somewhat higher that Stockton's, but his box +/- is already lower that John's on average, and will likely get worse as he inevitably declines. Harden will definitely drop below Stockton by the time he retires, but Chris Paul will probably not.

VORP is cumulative for the career, unlike the Box +/- and it looks like this:

Untitled.png


It's a shame the NBA doesn't have exact +/- stats before 1996/97. Even the ones for Stock in the late 30s look gaudy.

Untitled.png


John Stockton is my favourite player of all time and I'm a massive Jazz homer, and even I might be underrating Stockton. He might just have been that good. Oh, and he craps all over Thomas, according to these(and other) advanced metrics.
 
Thee jazz fan said:
Never said Stockton was a better defender, just pointing out that in his prime he was damn good on that side of the ball.

No it’s on ****ing *** point!! You ****ing said he wasn’t a game changer
Click to expand...
Exactly! Thanks for proving my point. That's not something I said at all. Just arguments you made up in your head.

I did say Malone was a bigger impact. I did say from a scoring standpoint he couldn't take over games scoring like Malone. I never said Stockton was not a game changer.

Also lol at that first part going over your head.
 
JimLes said:
That's not a factoid. Thomas was a good player on a team that was super stacked. Just like the 2004 Pistons. You replace Thomas with Stockton on that 1989 team and they still win easily.

Again, look at that team. They were stacked. Dumars was a 6-time All-Star and a much better defender than Thomas with similar scoring numbers. He wasn't just given the FVMP. He outscored Thomas by 6 points a game in that series while averaging just one assist fewer. His TS% was better by 10 percentage points, too. The roles would reverse next year, but Dumars was a flat out stud. No, I'm not saying he was better that Thomas overall, but I am saying that Thomas had Dumars. Dumars was 26 at the time.

He also had Aguirre. 3-time All-Star, including his ultimate and penultimate season in Dallas before being traded to Detroit. Easily put up 25+ in Dallas and had a great mid-range game, but could also score around the rim in all kinds of ways. He was 29 during those first Finals.

Laimbeer was top 10 in the league in all manner of advanced defensive statistics, and a 4-time All-Star. He could also get under an opponent's skin like no one else and probably the closest think basketball has seen to a hockey enforcer. 31 at the time.

Rodman was a DPOY in both 1990 and 1991 and whose defensive abilities even in his late 30s we all witness in those Jazz Finals and who was 28 when the Pistons first won it.

They had Vinny Johnson off the bench who was nicknamed Microwave for a reason and whose per-36 numbers put most starting guards to shame. He finished 2nd in Sixth Man of the Year voting once during that time.

Add to that a real supporting cast including Mahorn, Salley, and Edwards(remember, this is when most NBA team's firepower came up front, so you needed guys to handle that) and that's a team that would win the championship with most star guards replacing Thomas. They went 3-0, 4-0, 4-2, 4-0 in 1989.

Build a team like this around top guards in the NBA right now, and yes, they will win titles. Or any top guard from any other point in history. That's not to say Thomas was a scrub, but he was not the second best PG in NBA history, no matter what Jordan says. Bleacher Report had him at #10 not even a year ago, and that's probably generous too. The numbers(advanced or otherwise) probably put him closer to 15.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2852716-nba-all-time-player-rankings-top-10-point-guards
Click to expand...

Got it. Everyone else who thinks he was a top 2-3 point guard who is wrong and JimLes is right.
 
Isiah has one of the greatest hockey assists of all time, on one of the most memorable plays of all time. Isiah to Bird to Johnson.
 
And please gtfo with your dumbass stats. Any stat that has Kirilenko as the 25th greatest player ever is pure trash. The only things he excelled at were crying, underachieving, and wasting talent because WoW was more important.
 
Ron Mexico said:
Exactly! Thanks for proving my point. That's not something I said at all. Just arguments you made up in your head.

I did say Malone was a bigger impact. I did say from a scoring standpoint he couldn't take over games scoring like Malone. I never said Stockton was not a game changer.

Also lol at that first part going over your head.
Click to expand...

that’s why you’re a dumbass, letting your buttcheeks do all that flapping for you, because Stockton was a great scorer. He was a great three point scorer slasher and yes, better at finishing inside the pain than Mitchell currently is. And was efficient as hell. That’s all you do is look at stats, your resume is perfect for ESPN but no other sporting news outfit.

Stockton felt it wasn’t his responsibility to shoot and score but run the offense and get the ball to Malone and others. He could take over a game without taking one shot, but when the jazz weren’t scoring, that’s when stocktons scoring would come alive. He’d score 8-10 pts straight. He did it countless times. Grow some ****ing eyes, you moron and watch a game and you’d see what I’m talking about. There wasn’t much Stockton couldn’t do.

Stockton was the driving force for the jazz in the 90’s why do you think the jazz were so efficient on offense. Those teams seemed to shoot 50% more often than they didn’t.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
And please gtfo with your dumbass stats. Any stat that has Kirilenko as the 25th greatest player ever is pure trash. The only things he excelled at were crying, underachieving, and wasting talent because WoW was more important.
Click to expand...

Ok, give us better stats.
 
Honestly I have no idea what you’re even arguing. You’re arguing just to argue. Thomas was a GREAT player. Deal with it. No need to stick your chest out and defend Stockton just because you love him. Get over it. It’s this pathetic Jazzfanz inferiority complex that makes me wish I wasn’t a fan.
 
Wes Mantooth said:
Honestly I have no idea what you’re even arguing. You’re arguing just to argue. Thomas was a GREAT player. Deal with it. No need to stick your chest out and defend Stockton just because you love him. Get over it. It’s this pathetic Jazzfanz inferiority complex that makes me wish I wasn’t a fan.
Click to expand...
You basically said Thomas was better because he has rings. This is a message board. I’m going to disagree with you when you’re wrong. As simple as that
 
Wes Mantooth said:
Thomas: 2 rings
Stockton: 0 rings
Click to expand...
This stat to compare individual players is dumb.
You could say Horace grant is better than Malone and bill Cartwright is better than David Robinson using the rings argument.

Robert horry is better than Jordan

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Thee jazz fan said:
You basically said Thomas was better because he has rings. This is a message board. I’m going to disagree with you when you’re wrong. As simple as that
Click to expand...

I was being silly. I refuse to have to prove myself to idiots. If JimLes thinks Thomas wasn’t a great player, he’s an idiot, plain and simple.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top