From here on out are you cheering for us to win or lose?

KqWIN said:

Why are you throwing out the potential to be lucky? I would love to hear your path forward that does not require luck.

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Because you said the reason to tank this season, not to tank next season, was simply to hang onto our pick.

KqWIN said:

You don’t have to consider the 7th pick to be franchise changing in order to want to tank for it. It just has to be greater than the alternative. In this case, the alternative is nothing. There is no benefit to the Jazz not tanking.

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The alternative cost is massive. These players don't just suddenly start winning by pushing a button next summer. If the Jazz tank (sit Lauri and Keyonte a lot of the season, play without any center etc.) this season, then they're a year further away from winning. These guys have to learn to win, to play together, maybe finally play a little bit of D etc.

And when next season they're only starting to learn and end up losing quite a lot... then were back in square on: why not tank again, because it doesn't look like the team is going anywhere.

KqWIN said:

The problem with your incessant complaining is that you don’t argue for anything. If you don’t think tanking is good, please provide a path forward and see if it meets your own standard of what is worth doing. Earlier you mentioned that the Jazz really need to trade for a backup C. Is that truly franchise changing and why must it be done now?

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I don't have to.

If someone is arguing that NOW we absolutely 100 % should tank and NEXT season definitely not at all, then I'd expect them to provide some sort of logic why that's so. And I haven't seen anything sensible yet.

A young, potentially good C was just an example. I'd like to see moves that benefit the next season, possibly players that are actually usable going forward. Might be any position. We've seen enough on a lot of our own guys, now start to churn the roster into something resembling a decent, competitive team.

Not sure I’m following the logic with not wanting to tank this year. We can still develop players and lose games. The only argument against tanking is creating a losing mindset. But, Hardy does not seem to have lost the team whatsoever and the advantage of having a vet like Markennen, niang etc is locker room maturity mixed with the eagerness and energy of the young players that theoretically would be a pretty easy on switch imo. When you have PF like Jayden Quaintance or even yaxel landenburger whatever his name sitting in the 8-12 range you gotta acknowledge the strength of this particular draft class. In a season where we are not going anywhere other than fringe playoff and would lose our pick….you absolutely hope you finish in bottom 8.

zags422 said:

Not sure I’m following the logic with not wanting to tank this year. We can still develop players and lose games. The only argument against tanking is creating a losing mindset. But, Hardy does not seem to have lost the team whatsoever and the advantage of having a vet like Markennen, niang etc is locker room maturity mixed with the eagerness and energy of the young players that theoretically would be a pretty easy on switch imo. When you have PF like Jayden Quaintance or even yaxel landenburger whatever his name sitting in the 8-12 range you gotta acknowledge the strength of this particular draft class. In a season where we are not going anywhere other than fringe playoff and would lose our pick….you absolutely hope you finish in bottom 8.

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Its not the only argument. I'm on the team that thinks our better option is to NOT lose the pick, but I'm also 100% aware that our 3 key guys (Lauri, Key and coach Hardy) have zero playoff experience/proof in their current roles.

Even being one-and-done has value in terms of learning and this year the added value is that if Key gets shut down in a playoff series then that may net us a discount on his next deal. At least would be nice to know if that happens or not, before we possibly max him.

HermanG said:

Its not the only argument. I'm on the team that thinks our better option is to NOT lose the pick, but I'm also 100% aware that our 3 key guys (Lauri, Key and coach Hardy) have zero playoff experience/proof in their current roles.

Even being one-and-done has value in terms of learning and this year the added value is that if Key gets shut down in a playoff series then that may net us a discount on his next deal. At least would be nice to know if that happens or not, before we possibly max him.

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Only argument indeed probably a bit too exaggerated on my part. Touché

The FO better be following this thread… the result is pretty emphatic.

HermanG said:

Its not the only argument. I'm on the team that thinks our better option is to NOT lose the pick, but I'm also 100% aware that our 3 key guys (Lauri, Key and coach Hardy) have zero playoff experience/proof in their current roles.

Even being one-and-done has value in terms of learning and this year the added value is that if Key gets shut down in a playoff series then that may net us a discount on his next deal. At least would be nice to know if that happens or not, before we possibly max him.

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Thing is if they go for the playoffs and dont even get into the play in and give up their pick then we get the worst of everything for nothing.

Tanktastic said:

Because you said the reason to tank this season, not to tank next season, was simply to hang onto our pick.


The alternative cost is massive. These players don't just suddenly start winning by pushing a button next summer. If the Jazz tank (sit Lauri and Keyonte a lot of the season, play without any center etc.) this season, then they're a year further away from winning. These guys have to learn to win, to play together, maybe finally play a little bit of D etc.

And when next season they're only starting to learn and end up losing quite a lot... then were back in square on: why not tank again, because it doesn't look like the team is going anywhere.


I don't have to.

If someone is arguing that NOW we absolutely 100 % should tank and NEXT season definitely not at all, then I'd expect them to provide some sort of logic why that's so. And I haven't seen anything sensible yet.

A young, potentially good C was just an example. I'd like to see moves that benefit the next season, possibly players that are actually usable going forward. Might be any position. We've seen enough on a lot of our own guys, now start to churn the roster into something resembling a decent, competitive team.

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The pick protection is the most obvious difference as it’s discussed day in day out. Other rationale has also been provided.

You do have to come up with something. Come up with logic as to why the decision to tank is the same as it was last summer. Logic has provided as to why it’s different and you just refuse to counter besides having the most ridiculous standards. Here is the for dummies version of why it’s different.

- The pick protections
- It’s harder to tank because young players keep getting better
- There is a better opportunity to improve team

In other words, the incentive is worse and the chance at success is worse.

On top of that, it’s just obvious that patience is running out. That isn’t necessarily a good reason to stop the tank, but it’s something that’s true unless you live under a rock.

The only reason many of these players are playing in the first place is because we are tanking. So yes, you do start winning more games by flipping the switch if that switch is to literally have different players. Key and Lauri don’t need to “learn to win”, they will win more when they improve and/or their teammates improve. It makes sense to hold off for reasons listed above.

By saying that the opportunity cost is massive to not play Keyonte, you are proving the point. When the Jazz decided to tank this year they didn’t know Keyonte was this good and they probably didn’t have the #7 pick on their minds. Now they do. The decision is different.

I also think there’s an argument for tanking by keeping the talent pool lower to keep the pick by trading away veterans who are not in the long-term plans and overplaying young guys to get them more experience and see where they’re at in their development. I don’t consider either of those things unethical, but highly conducive to keeping the pick.

Then once you extinguish the protections on the pick and land another top-8 prospect to add to your team, you go full-bore as an organization to upgrade your talent everywhere else and push for competing that way. I’m pretty sure the team can upgrade Svi, Nurkic and Anderson in the rotation. If that’s the case, then that alone nets more wins next year.

Coach Ellis said:

I also think there’s an argument for tanking by keeping the talent pool lower to keep the pick by trading away veterans who are not in the long-term plans and overplaying young guys to get them more experience and see where they’re at in their development. I don’t consider either of those things unethical, but highly conducive to keeping the pick.

Then once you extinguish the protections on the pick and land another top-8 prospect to add to your team, you go full-bore as an organization to upgrade your talent everywhere else and push for competing that way. I’m pretty sure the team can upgrade Svi, Nurkic and Anderson in the rotation. If that’s the case, then that alone nets more wins next year.

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I wouldn’t say you need to go full-bore to upgrade talent everywhere. I would hate for the Jazz to make a move just because they want to make a big splash or anything along those lines. But I think you are free to acquire talent if you think the fit and value is right.

But I agree with most of this. I don’t really see the value in winning through our current vets. And I don’t really have much concern about playing the young guys a little bit more.

Just thinking out loud:
- Tanking isn't as simple as fans make it out to be. It should be easy to lose on purpose, but maintaining player and coaching relationships, avoiding penalties from the league, and maintaining an atmosphere conducive to player development can be a tricky balance.
- Tanking with Lauri should be easier after all star selections are completed at the end of the month, so we might just have another month to walk the tight rope.
- Keyonte is definitely in the running for MIP, I'm not sure how much he cares.
- There is a lot of national media attention on the Jazz tanking this year, way more than last year.
- The league can't/shouldn't give out penalties for coaching decisions, so the easiest way to tank would be greatly reducing Lauri/Keyonte's minutes while also not playing them at the end of games. I wonder if Hardy can also maximize the time that they aren't on the court together and how much of an impact that would have.
- The above point is not a tactic that is ever really used, which is probably because it affects the per game counting stats.
- Per game counting stats still being super important today is dumb
- I'm not sure what the impact is of not giving Hardy more time to actually coach. Hardy is still learning and developing as well, so tanking hurts him also.

SoberasHotRod said:

- Keyonte is definitely in the running for MIP, I'm not sure how much he cares.

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Not positive on what the rules are for when we can offer Key an extension, but I'd assume he'd be more OK with sitting if Utah promised him a 5 year max/near max contract.

fishonjazz said:

Thing is if they go for the playoffs and dont even get into the play in and give up their pick then we get the worst of everything for nothing.

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Yeah as I said I wanna keep the pick. But if they get on some hot run qnd make it all the way to playoffs there are benefits to that as well. Just less of them.