From here on out are you cheering for us to win or lose?

[SoberasHotRod]

Not positive on what the rules are for when we can offer Key an extension, but I'd assume he'd be more OK with sitting if Utah promised him a 5 year max/near max contract.

I don't think they can offer anything until the Summer.

 

[KqWIN]

Just thinking out loud:
- Tanking isn't as simple as fans make it out to be. It should be easy to lose on purpose, but maintaining player and coaching relationships, avoiding penalties from the league, and maintaining an atmosphere conducive to player development can be a tricky balance.
- Tanking with Lauri should be easier after all star selections are completed at the end of the month, so we might just have another month to walk the tight rope.
- Keyonte is definitely in the running for MIP, I'm not sure how much he cares.
- There is a lot of national media attention on the Jazz tanking this year, way more than last year.
- The league can't/shouldn't give out penalties for coaching decisions, so the easiest way to tank would be greatly reducing Lauri/Keyonte's minutes while also not playing them at the end of games. I wonder if Hardy can also maximize the time that they aren't on the court together and how much of an impact that would have.
- The above point is not a tactic that is ever really used, which is probably because it affects the per game counting stats.
- Per game counting stats still being super important today is dumb
- I'm not sure what the impact is of not giving Hardy more time to actually coach. Hardy is still learning and developing as well, so tanking hurts him also.

Not that I have a problem with tanking of the rules allow for it, but I actually find the in game tanking stuff more egregious a potentially bigger problem for the league. For my personal taste, I want to believe that that the players and coaches are trying to win with what they have.

But from a league perspective, they are worried about the “integrity” with respect to the integrity of the bets. If NBA players aren’t playing their normal amount of minutes, you’re going to have a million gambling addicts complaining about how everything is rigged etc. I still think the league cares about their stars in uniform during national TV games, but that’s hardly a problem with tanking teams. For non TV games it’s a more legitimate game for betting if the player is either in or out. It’s crazy how many people are placing prop bets on these games.

I think the Cavs, for example, are the team that has been fined the most because it’s all about accurate injury reports and nations tv games.

 

[HermanG]

Just thinking out loud:
- Tanking isn't as simple as fans make it out to be. It should be easy to lose on purpose, but maintaining player and coaching relationships, avoiding penalties from the league, and maintaining an atmosphere conducive to player development can be a tricky balance.
- Tanking with Lauri should be easier after all star selections are completed at the end of the month, so we might just have another month to walk the tight rope.
- Keyonte is definitely in the running for MIP, I'm not sure how much he cares.
- There is a lot of national media attention on the Jazz tanking this year, way more than last year.
- The league can't/shouldn't give out penalties for coaching decisions, so the easiest way to tank would be greatly reducing Lauri/Keyonte's minutes while also not playing them at the end of games. I wonder if Hardy can also maximize the time that they aren't on the court together and how much of an impact that would have.
- The above point is not a tactic that is ever really used, which is probably because it affects the per game counting stats.
- Per game counting stats still being super important today is dumb
- I'm not sure what the impact is of not giving Hardy more time to actually coach. Hardy is still learning and developing as well, so tanking hurts him also.

Good thoughts. I would like to add that optics matter, and Lauri+Key being the 3rd best scoring duo works against us on that department.

People are already wondering how our record can be this bad with those 2 playing the way they are. It doesnt add up.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

Not that I have a problem with tanking of the rules allow for it, but I actually find the in game tanking stuff more egregious a potentially bigger problem for the league. For my personal taste, I want to believe that that the players and coaches are trying to win with what they have.

But from a league perspective, they are worried about the “integrity” with respect to the integrity of the bets. If NBA players aren’t playing their normal amount of minutes, you’re going to have a million gambling addicts complaining about how everything is rigged etc. I still think the league cares about their stars in uniform during national TV games, but that’s hardly a problem with tanking teams. For non TV games it’s a more legitimate game for betting if the player is either in or out.

I think the Cavs, for example, are the team that has been fined the most because it’s all about accurate injury reports and nations tv games.

I agree, but I do think with all of the national media attention on the Jazz's tanking situation and OKC who will likely file a complaint that just sitting Lauri/Keyonte is going to be much more difficult this year.

 

[HermanG]

In game tanking is also problematic for gambling reasons. Lineups/availability affect the betting lines but if you start pulling shenanigans in games and especially in clutch minutes people will take exception to that.

 

[KqWIN]

I agree, but I do think with all of the national media attention on the Jazz's tanking situation and OKC who will likely file a complaint that just sitting Lauri/Keyonte is going to be much more difficult this year.

I am skeptical that the league concern matches what is happening in podcast/twitter land, but who knows for sure. I don't doubt that OKC is complaining, they are min maxers. But the idea of the league being so focused on the Jazz when they are going to exceed their over/under by 10 wins feels far fetched for a multitude of reasons.

 

[KqWIN]

In game tanking is also problematic for gambling reasons. Lineups/availability affect the betting lines but if you start pulling shenanigans in games and especially in clutch minutes people will take exception to that.

Last year TOR pulled all their players in an attempt to lose mid 4th quarter. That's the kind of stuff that will Vegas pulling out the pitchforks and seems like a big issue for the league. You can't be advertising live, dynamic prop bets all game if there's going to be mid game shenanigans. It's better to just have players on the injury report and in or out of the game entirely.

I actually think that what the Jazz are doing with Svi is more risky than what they are doing with Key and Lauri. Key and Lauri are on injury reports. Svi randomly plays or doesn't at all with no injury report, which will make the gambling folks rage.

 

[HermanG]

Last year TOR pulled all their players in an attempt to lose mid 4th quarter. That's the kind of stuff that will Vegas pulling out the pitchforks and seems like a big issue for the league. You can't be advertising live, dynamic prop bets all game if there's going to be mid game shenanigans. It's better to just have players on the injury report and in or out of the game entirely.

I actually think that what the Jazz are doing with Svi is more risky than what they are doing with Key and Lauri. Key and Lauri are on injury reports. Svi randomly plays or doesn't at all with no injury report, which will make the gambling folks rage.

For sure. Anytime something like that happens it also immediately makes headlines, and I'm pretty sure there are phone calls made as well.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

I am skeptical that the league concern matches what is happening in podcast/twitter land, but who knows for sure. I don't doubt that OKC is complaining, they are min maxers. But the idea of the league being so focused on the Jazz when they are going to exceed their over/under by 10 wins feels far fetched for a multitude of reasons.

I mostly agree and if you look at my posts from last year I argued with a lot of people along the same lines. I think the league mostly cares about maximizing profit, but I do think the league cares about their reputation and as the noise gets louder I can see them taking more drastic measures than they did last year.

 

[KqWIN]

I mostly agree and if you look at my posts from last year I argued with a lot of people along the same lines. I think the league mostly cares about maximizing profit, but I do think the league cares about their reputation and as the noise gets louder I can see them taking more drastic measures than they did last year.

I'm biased, of course, but placating Presti after doing his own egregious tanking would also be a bad look.

 

[Tanktastic]

When you have PF like Jayden Quaintance or even yaxel landenburger whatever his name sitting in the 8-12 range you gotta acknowledge the strength of this particular draft class.

No, you don't have to acknowledge that. There isn't a Wemby in this draft class. This draft class is not distinguishable from any other year. In his draft year still around the end of the year Isaiah Collier was a projected top3-pick. And surely showed the strength of that class back then as well.

You do have to come up with something. Come up with logic as to why the decision to tank is the same as it was last summer.

The Jazz are now tanking their 4th straight season. The team, the owner, the FO, even the fans to a degree have shown what they want and what the strategy is. Anyone saying "now it changes!" has to provide evidence, not me.

- The pick protections

Yeah, sure. If you believe the #7 pick is more valuable than trying to build towards something already this season. I don't.

- It’s harder to tank because young players keep getting better

Then the Jazz get rid of those players, as they have proven many times already if someone threatens the tanking.

- There is a better opportunity to improve team

Why? How? Why would it better then than now? The Jazz have bled assets and continue to do so, salary flexibility is going in the wrong direction. I think the opportunities are getting fewer and worse the longer this goes on.

On top of that, it’s just obvious that patience is running out. That isn’t necessarily a good reason to stop the tank, but it’s something that’s true unless you live under a rock.

Sure. If the owner, FO, you, whoever, admits that tanking didn't work out and I'm out, then I'm absolutely fine with that. Cut your losses etc. Took you long enough to find out, but hopefully that will carry with you for some time.

Key and Lauri don’t need to “learn to win”, they will win more when they improve and/or their teammates improve.

Nope.

 

[KqWIN]

No, you don't have to acknowledge that. There isn't a Wemby in this draft class. This draft class is not distinguishable from any other year. In his draft year still around the end of the year Isaiah Collier was a projected top3-pick. And surely showed the strength of that class back then as well.


The Jazz are now tanking their 4th straight season. The team, the owner, the FO, even the fans to a degree have shown what they want and what the strategy is. Anyone saying "now it changes!" has to provide evidence, not me.


Yeah, sure. If you believe the #7 pick is more valuable than trying to build towards something already this season. I don't.


Then the Jazz get rid of those players, as they have proven many times already if someone threatens the tanking.


Why? How? Why would it better then than now? The Jazz have bled assets and continue to do so, salary flexibility is going in the wrong direction. I think the opportunities are getting fewer and worse the longer this goes on.


Sure. If the owner, FO, you, whoever, admits that tanking didn't work out and I'm out, then I'm absolutely fine with that. Cut your losses etc. Took you long enough to find out, but hopefully that will carry with you for some time.


Nope.

I have told you why it’s a different to tank next year than this year. It’s outlined in the most simple way possible. This includes your own acknowledgment that Key affects the decision to tank. Key is not who we thought he is. That is enough “evidence” to make the decision to tank or not change. Trading Keyonte or Lauri to tank is not remotely similar to trading Sexton and Collins.

Now you make an argument that says the decision to tank is no different than it was before. I’ll wait.

If you don’t want to actually discuss the topic and instead want to whine and complain while providing no alternatives, I’m just done with the conversation. I like to talk basketball, not provide comfort for your feelings.