Considering that what the Jazz are currently primarily invested in won't sniff a title, this sounds like a great plan.
Jazz history, Status Quo and Social Media
- Thread starter Lion's Roar
- Start date
Considering that what the Jazz are currently primarily invested in won't sniff a title, this sounds like a great plan.
True and that offseason they traded Dantley to make Karl the #1 option in his second year. They knew Karl was going to be better and made room for him to lead the team. Favors and Hayward now in their 3rd season still don't have leadership of the team despite the fact that they are and will be more effective and better players than Al Jefferson, Paul Millsap, Mo Williams and whoever else the Jazz consider leaders of this team.
Just kidding, once the Jazz trade Al, it will be as though the blimp of winning tradition will have been breached and will come crashing down to earth. Our only chance is to hold onto Al to make a point that the Utah Jazz are - above all - scared. Let's have some reverence for that.
I'm trying to have patience until the deadline, but I just have a bad feeling.
I'm trying to have patience until the deadline, but I just have a bad feeling.
vslice02
Well-Known Member
Because the Jazz in the mid-late 90's were a championship-caliber team for multiple seasons. No they didn't win but they peaked at exactly the wrong time. It's like asking why Jordan is the greatest player ever when he has fewer MVP's than Kareem. There's a difference betwen knowing facts and having understanding. If you're a top-4 team in the NBA over a 5-year stretch, that's all you can ask for and you hope you can get over the hump atleast once. Whether the organizations aims for titles or not - Jazz fans will be lucky if we ever see that high-level of success again in our lifetimes.
Lion's Roar
Active Member
Al is also getting better at passing the ball and his usage rating isn't nearly as high as some make ppl believe. Go check his usage % against that of Millsap, Hayward and Mo.
Not saying that. But I believe for a 1st time coach dealing with a team that traded his superstar, faced a shortened season with almost no time to practice Corbin's doing a good job.
What if the Jazz trade both Al and MIllsap by Feb 21st and the team starts playing the C4 often. This all would seem a bit much, no? I don't think it will happen and quite frankly I wouldn't mind let both Al and Millsap leave and get some sort of S&T with one of them and move forward then. If the Jazz put forth a team that starts Enes and Favs next year would it be such a bad thing that they waited for 30 more games?
Considering that they probably should've embraced rebuilding as long as two years ago and certainly as long ago as the 2012 offseason? Yes. Considering that those 30 games might give you a better picture of what the future might look like and respond accordingly? Yes. Considering that the Jazz will be unlikely to get anything in a S&T and in that case will have totally pissed away the worth of their assets? Yes.
Lion's Roar
Active Member
Enes is 20 years old. He started playing 6 years ago (at age 14) and lost 1 and 1/2 season to Kentucky and the NBA lockout. The dude has Derrick already started quite a few games in New Jersey. He's 21 or 22 and also lost almost 1/2 a season last year. Karl was 23 when they let Dantley go. If Favs starts next year he would be right on track with the Mailman not in seasons played but in age. He won't turn out to be Malone I don't think.
I wanna go back to Enes. He played two seasons at bellow junior level in Turkey. He played 9 games as a Pro in Turkey averaging about 8 mpg. He plays some high school games in the US, the NIKE summit (1 game) and no games in the NCAA. He then proceedes to play no summer league and about only half a season. And he's 20 years old. Even Bynum had to sit when he came in so young.
W/L since Stockton retired
We're still a Top 10 franchise since Stockton retired...
Team Win Loss % Playoff
SAS 549 226 0.708 9
DAL 508 265 0.657 9
LAL 478 296 0.618 8
DEN 459 315 0.593 9
PHX 451 323 0.583 5
MIA 440 330 0.571 8
BOS 438 335 0.567 7
HOU 437 338 0.564 5
DET 425 350 0.548 6
UTA 418 356 0.540 5
CHI 417 356 0.539 7
ORL 407 366 0.527 6
CLE 405 369 0.523 5
IND 395 379 0.510 5
OKC 389 384 0.503 4
MEM 371 401 0.481 5
POR 367 406 0.475 3
NOR 363 411 0.469 4
PHI 355 417 0.460 5
ATL 346 426 0.448 5
GSW 339 434 0.439 1
MIL 336 436 0.435 3
BKN 335 439 0.433 4
LAC 332 444 0.428 2
SAC 327 447 0.422 3
NYK 322 449 0.418 3
TOR 318 455 0.411 2
WAS 299 473 0.387 4
MIN 290 481 0.376 1
CHA 241 450 0.349 1
We're still a Top 10 franchise since Stockton retired...
Team Win Loss % Playoff
SAS 549 226 0.708 9
DAL 508 265 0.657 9
LAL 478 296 0.618 8
DEN 459 315 0.593 9
PHX 451 323 0.583 5
MIA 440 330 0.571 8
BOS 438 335 0.567 7
HOU 437 338 0.564 5
DET 425 350 0.548 6
UTA 418 356 0.540 5
CHI 417 356 0.539 7
ORL 407 366 0.527 6
CLE 405 369 0.523 5
IND 395 379 0.510 5
OKC 389 384 0.503 4
MEM 371 401 0.481 5
POR 367 406 0.475 3
NOR 363 411 0.469 4
PHI 355 417 0.460 5
ATL 346 426 0.448 5
GSW 339 434 0.439 1
MIL 336 436 0.435 3
BKN 335 439 0.433 4
LAC 332 444 0.428 2
SAC 327 447 0.422 3
NYK 322 449 0.418 3
TOR 318 455 0.411 2
WAS 299 473 0.387 4
MIN 290 481 0.376 1
CHA 241 450 0.349 1
vslice02
Well-Known Member
If you made this argument prior to last season, I would probably lean towards your side. But a whole year later, Favors&Kanter have shown clear progression and I would argue are Utah's two best defending bigs. I like Millsap and hope the Jazz resign him. Heck, I'd be alright w/letting Big Al expire this offseason as well - the issue in the meantime is PT. Yes, even for 30 games - I think it's poor judgement to relegate Favors as a 22mpg bench guy when he could sign an extension this offseason. Jazz have a ton of cap room to shape and retool their roster this offseason - but you can't build a roster if you don't know what you already have. Utah could set themselves up pretty w/all that cap room plus a young 4-man nucleus still playing on their rookie contracts - instead we have 4 former lottery picks who are bench players.
Welcome back, and you post was not long compared to some.
Malone played three-four years in college, Stockton played four. They were grown men when they entered the league. By contrast, Favors played one year and Kanter was redshirted for a year. They were not grown men.
I want Favors to play a little more, and Kanter to greatly increase his minutes, but they were drafted on the potential of who they would be in 2016, not 2013.
orangello
Well-Known Member
I understand where you are coming from on this but I don't agree with you.
What Favors lacks on the offensive end he more than makes up for it on the defensive end. Favors is a net positive player. Jefferson is a net negative player.
Kanter has earned more minutes but he is still stuck on the bench. Both players are already good enough to see 25+ minutes a game. The Jazz would continue to win at a rate that is similar to what they are currently winning at, if those two were given that 25+ minutes a game.
GVC
Well-Known Member
The potential problem with this strategy is that both players will be eligible for extensions after year 3, or, if they don't sign extensions, become restricted free agents after year 4. Now, it's possible that bringing them along slowly will save the Jazz more money than it will cost them development (if other teams shy away from uncertainty), but young bigs with potential get paid, often regardless of production. The Jazz might be forced to make a decision on paying them without properly developing them or really knowing what they're getting. It'll be interesting to see what happens in contract extension negotiations with Favors (and Hayward) this summer.
Favors is net positive playing primarily against back-ups, Jefferson net-negative primarily against starters. You might be right that the Jazz would win at the same rate playing both Favors and Kanter 25+ minutes, but it will be tough when the differences between them and Millsap/Jefferson are not huge and the level of opposition faced is not insignificant.
How do we best make them ready for 2016? It is debatable, but more minutes sooner has got to help. Also, Favors can play now and should be getting big minutes. He is an exceptional defensive player already and offense is not bad.
We'll just have to agree to disagree that playing an extra 5-10 minutes per game would give the coaches, front office, and other people who see these players every day a much higher understanding of who they will be getting. Anytime you sign a low-20s guy to 6 years, you are taking a chance, no matter how many minutes they play. Would you say the Jazz got what they expected/hoped from Deron Williams, for example?
Now, you and I will have little idea what the Jazz are getting. That's not the same thing.
No, it doesn't "have to help". Like any other decisions, there are positives and negatives.
jimmy eat jazz
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your well thought out post. Even better, it has triggered a discussion that I find informative and enjoyable. I tend toward the side that believes that the Jazz have pissed away two years of developing its core for the future in favor of (in many cases) lesser talented vets whose utter most upside is leading us to the #7-8 seed. I was happy to accept a losing season last year to develop the core, and I was happy to accept one this year--if it was clear we had a strategy to build for the future. What I'm not happy to accept is failing to develop the core, while continuing to be the NBA poster child for mediocrity. I see no evidence of a plan at this point. Just the same ol same ol. It's last year all over again, albeit with a slightly different cast of journeymen, has been, or less skilled veterans taking playing time from our lottery picks. We could have been two years closer to our future, but instead, we're pretty much the same distance from our future as we were at the beginning of last season. I understand your arguments, and you make several very good points, but I'm not buying the final conclusion.
green
Well-Known Member
I don't want the Jazz to tank.
I want them to quit starting players that absolutely will NOT win a title as starters (Al) and play players that might win us a title (Favors, Kanter).
I've decided I can't make a decision on Corbin until Al is gone.
Al hurts everyone on this team except Al and maybe Kanter (showing him moves in practice).
I want them to quit starting players that absolutely will NOT win a title as starters (Al) and play players that might win us a title (Favors, Kanter).
I've decided I can't make a decision on Corbin until Al is gone.
Al hurts everyone on this team except Al and maybe Kanter (showing him moves in practice).
Okay, it is more likely to help. Would you agree with that? Generally speaking, playing more minutes gives you a better chance to improve? I think it does.
Also, the youngs are handled differently than the vets. Vets can play ugly and get their minutes. The youngs screw up and they head to the bench. THAT is not good.