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2020 NBA trade deadline discussion

Saint Cy of JFC said:
Yes, Niang is a threat from 3.

This isnt rocket science.

And it's crazy that a 40% 3pt shooter will sometimes hit 2/6 from 3. I mean, some games he will shoot 50%, then it's like the average is in the middle of that.
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what part of "efficiency means nothing without volume" do you not understand?
 
Eenie-Meenie said:
Shooting form and touch mean something too. It's obvious that Niang is a good shooter just from watching him shoot. Stats don't tell the whole story.
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quite the opposite, shooting form and touch means very little to competitive basketball. there are professional shooting artists out there who shoots lights out in the gym but in real basketball games you'll never have the time/space to get into your most comfortable rhythm so you'll have to adapt to shooting off the bounce, quick catch and release, etc.

basically any professional basketball players not named Ben Simmons can shoot at a respectable rate in gym practice, but only a few can really be called "shooters" on NBA stage, and they all have the numbers to back it up.
 
Saint Cy of JFC said:
What you are saying is nonsensical.

Yall develop this blind-hatred for players and refuse to acknowledge the obvious.
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U serious? Niang needs "haters"?

just look around you and tell me how many people on JFZ is willing to defend this guy. He looks terrible on the court, and his stats, both basic and advance, aren't pretty, either.

And tell me how what i'm saying is nonsensical. Houston literally deployed the strategy of letting him shoot at will in last season's playoff, and he buried us. If he truly is a "shooting threat" like you said, HOU would not have defended the way they did. they simply knew that we were loaded with players who have the ability to shoot, but just not good/consistent enough at it to cause a "threat".
 
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jom2003 said:
quite the opposite, shooting form and touch means very little to competitive basketball. there are professional shooting artists out there who shoots lights out in the gym but in real basketball games you'll never have the time/space to get into your most comfortable rhythm so you'll have to adapt to shooting off the bounce, quick catch and release, etc.

basically any professional basketball players not named Ben Simmons can shoot at a respectable rate in gym practice, but only a few can really be called "shooters" on NBA stage, and they all have the numbers to back it up.
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BS. Shooting form and touch are important in competitive basketball. Look at the greatest shooters in basketball history: Bird, Curry, Korver, Nash, Miller, Allen, Klay -- they all have great form and touch. You think Lonzo Ball is ever going to be included among them?
 
jom2003 said:
U serious? Niang needs "haters"?

just look around you and tell me how many people on JFZ is willing to defend this guy. He looks terrible on the court, and his stats, both basic and advance, aren't pretty, either.

And tell me how what i'm saying is nonsensical. Houston literally deployed the strategy of letting him shoot at will in last season's playoff, and he buried us. If he truly is a "shooting threat" like you said, HOU would not have defended the way they did. they simply knew that we were loaded with players who have the ability to shoot, but just not good/consistent enough at it to cause a "threat".
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You're the one who is blind. No one has ever said Niang is the next Larry Bird, but I sure as heck would rather have him taking the last shot than Bricky Ricky.
 
JWF could evolve a great 2nd PG, 6th man or instant offense. He can be very valuable down the road. Why trade him unless we get great value?
 
Eenie-Meenie said:
BS. Shooting form and touch are important in competitive basketball. Look at the greatest shooters in basketball history: Bird, Curry, Korver, Nash, Miller, Allen, Klay -- they all have great form and touch. You think Lonzo Ball is ever going to be included among them?
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what point are you trying to make? great shooters usually have good shooting form(even though i wouldn't call Reggie Miller's shooting form a good one), but good shooting form doesn't necessarily make you a good shooter, until you've got the shooting stats to prove it. simple logic.
 
Eenie-Meenie said:
You're the one who is blind. No one has ever said Niang is the next Larry Bird, but I sure as heck would rather have him taking the last shot than Bricky Ricky.
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such a weak point. shooting better than Rubio doesn't make you a "shooting threat", not even close. Even though to HOU last post-season, Niang and Rubio basically mean the same to them, that is, "please shoot as many as you want."
 
jom2003 said:
what point are you trying to make? great shooters usually have good shooting form(even though i wouldn't call Reggie Miller's shooting form a good one), but good shooting form doesn't necessarily make you a good shooter, until you've got the shooting stats to prove it. simple logic.
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You're full of stats. Well, these are George's career shooting numbers .370 3-pt and .789 FT, is .394 from 3 this year and .366 last year with the Stars with greater volume, scoring better than 21 ppg. So, he's pretty good I would say and I think could improve based on his shooting form.
 
SCS said:
Our top 6 players is good enough to be a contender. DM, Rudy, Bogey, Mike, Royce and Joe. The +/- of rotations involving 5 of those 6 is great. And that's despite Mike, Joe and Donovan all struggling at different points. They still consistently beat opposing starting 5's.

All we need is one or two more rotation pieces. I think Davis is fine at the backup 5. Our two biggest issues are 1) Niang is a massive net minus and that is made worse by Green being so damn inconsistent, and 2) Neither Mudiay or Exum seem to be the answer at backup PG because while both bring good things to the table (Mudiay- scoring ability, Exum- Defense) both also have severe limitations.

Ideally we would add a more complete backup PG (I wish could have kept Neto) and a backup 3/4 who is more versatile than Niang and more consistent than Green.
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If you're ever trying to argue that the Jazz are "currently" contenders, and later follow up with "all we need is one or two more rotation pieces" then we are not contenders my friend. We're one or two pieces away from being a contender. Contenders don't need to add, take away, pray about, wish upon a star, or change anything.
 
SCS said:
Jazz player +/- on the season

Bogey +71
Royce +54
Rudy +46
Mike +36 (yeah despite struggling with his shot still a +)
Donovan +14
Mudiay +4
Brantley +1 (small sample)
Kidd -1 (small sample)
Morgan -1 (small sample)
Oni -3 (small sample)
NWG -7 (small sample)
Exum -17
Bradley -19
Davis -27
Ingles -37 (skewed by playing by second unit as lineup +/- suggests)
Niang -53
Green -82

Green and Niang play 29.8 minutes per game btw :(
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I think there are other variables we should look at, if these are actually factual stats. If Royce O'neale is a +54 but averages 6.0 PPG, 0.3 BPG, 2.6 APG, 4.7 RPG and plays 28.4 MPG, then his +54 doesn't carry close to the value of anyone else's +/- on our entire roster.
He's playing +8.4 more MPG and has only increased his stats 0.8 PPG, *no change* in BPG, 0.1 SPG, 1.1 APG, 1.2 RPG than the previous year.
How is this not a problem??
 
SCS said:
Kidd-Gilchrist shot form is about as ugly as you'll ever see, yes. He has had a few seasons where he shot a decent percentage from 3 on a low amount of attempts (43% on 1 3 attempt per in 15-16, 34% on 0.7 attempt per in 18-19). But he's not a shooter.

I think that's fine though. The idea in theory is that he would add athleticism, defense, rebounding, hustle in the minutes where Niang is providing nothing.

Another thing is that he's a 26 year old former #2 overall pick who has been on one bad basketball team for his entire career. He'll never be a star but maybe there's still some potential there. Maybe simply being on a good basketball team with good players would change some things.
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He's been in the NBA for 8 years and has a career average of 8.9 PPG. I don't care about where he was picked in the draft, it's called a bust and he isn't the first nor will he be the last, but he is in fact one of them. Let's talk about this "bad basketball team" thing you bring up. There are some players that thrive under a different coaches system, this is not one of them. He's injured all the time and was on a team with a guy named Kemba Walker who didn't let his team stop him from thriving.

2013-2014 :43-39 ranked 7th seed and went to the playoffs. (Played 62 games because of injuries)
2014-2015 :33-49 11th seed (MKG played 55 games also because of injuries)
2015-2016 :48-34 ranked 6th seed and went to the playoffs. (He also only played 7 games that year because of injuries)
2016-2017 :36-46 11th seed (first time cracking 80 games played in his career)
2017-2018 :36-46 10th seed (MKG 74 games played)
2018-2019 :39-43 9th seed (MKG 64 games played and only started 3 games)
2019-2020 :Has only played 2 games again due to injury.

He's shot 27% from 3 throughout his career. That's on him and has nothing to do with being on a bad team. It just means that he can't make 3's.
He's averaged 1.2 assists throughout his career while also averaging a solid 25.3 MPG. It's looking to me that he is apart of the problem of that bad team that he was on instead of being apart of the solution. He's averaged only 8.9 PPG and is maybe the only player in the league that makes Royce O'neale qualified to be in a starting lineup.

One last stat.
I've spent 15 minutes putting this together on 2 scrubs. You and MKG, and those 15 minutes I will never get back.
 
jom2003 said:
what part of "efficiency means nothing without volume" do you not understand?
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Brother, trust me. There's a lot this neanderthal doesn't understand. Conversing with this Ineffectual, aphasic, effeminate, coquette is nothing more than a waste of your valuable time. Nothing that you say can or will be comprehended by this rare specimen of our creator's rare mistakes. Please come back in 3,000 years when it's brain has had the time to evolve the capability of thinking thoughts. Wait an additional 1,000 years if you would like those thoughts to be intelligent.
 
Eenie-Meenie said:
BS. Shooting form and touch are important in competitive basketball. Look at the greatest shooters in basketball history: Bird, Curry, Korver, Nash, Miller, Allen, Klay -- they all have great form and touch. You think Lonzo Ball is ever going to be included among them?
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You think Niang is ever going to be included among them????
 
So a couple things I’m seeing here reading the tea leaves and just listening to pods with some experts...

- Cap space isn’t a big deal next year... ****** crop of free agents. 2021 is the focus... so to me this means Dante’s contract is more movable... not necessarily seen as a big issue.
- A lot of firsts with contenders are encumbered so they can’t be moved and then others don’t have salary fodder to move in trades... like Boston. Mechanically trades will be hard to complete.
- The buyout market could get really good. Lots of guys making 15M or so on expirings may not be able to be moved... so no firsts no reason to clear space... so buyouts save the team some money at least... Iggy, Marvin Williams, are a couple candidates here to get bought out.

I think we can plug a hole or two this season but will need to be more aggressive and DL will need to let Dante go. If we really wanted to get wild Conley would likely still have a lot of value because of some of the factors listed above.
 
To add to my above post... We should position ourselves to be able to use the full MLE this summer. There are not a lot of good young or marquee free agents next summer and only the bottom feeders will have cap space. So guys like Gallo, Ibaka, Gasol, Dragic, Joe Harris, etc. could likely be had for the MLE unless they get interest from a high lotto team. There are also others like Bertans and Favors that will be in that tier... so if we can somehow clear Dante's salary it would help make the budget work with those types.
 
Not going to raise suspicions here, but Conley is out again tonight and has been out a week now with "hamstring tightness." Maybe this is a load management move, but I'm wondering if the Jazz are holding him out for a potential trade. Just something to keep an eye on over the next week.

I could see the Jazz moving him, especially if Conley himself isn't happy with his new situation for some reason.
 
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