4th of July and Religion

[The Thriller]

We have a lot of wealth, even at the poorer levels; we haver birthright citizenship; we don't have the same level of organized crime as most of Central America. They don't come because they want to carry protest signs.

Americans who has been to Canada, Asia, and Western Europe would most likely agree with you. I’ve loved all my trips to Europe. I’d move there today if my employment and my wife’s employment could be guaranteed. My wife has been to Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Thailand. Loved it there. Japan and South Korea were places she said she could easily live if her job could be guaranteed. Personally, I find Vancouver tempting. But again, employment.

Sadly, most Americans don’t travel out of country. In fact, I saw a survey not too long ago that most Americans rarely even leave their own states. Like ever. For their entire lifetimes. I found that hard to believe. But then again, I guess I shouldn’t. A lot of our issues are exactly because people don’t ever leave their comfortable local bubbles. If they did, they’d see our run down infrastructure and ridiculously awful health care system and recognize that we might not be the god-led exceptional country they’ve been led on to believe.

 

[The Thriller]

Was talking to a colleague from France. Her husband broke his arm and they rushed him to the ER here in Utah county. First thing by they asked when he got there? Proof of insurance. Then they had to go through the “awesome” routine of filling out all that paperwork to make sure the ER wasn’t going to take it up their shorts to treat him.

She was blown away.

Apparently, France doesn’t do that. In France, where they have universal coverage, things are a lot better. I read this book years ago and found it enlightening. You’re probably familiar with this book and some of its writings.

Amazon product ASIN B003XQEVMQView: https://www.amazon.com/Healing-America-Global-Better-Cheaper-ebook/dp/B003XQEVMQ/ref=pd_aw_di_ci_mcx_2l_mi_ca_mcx_picks_views_3?pd_rd_w=pir3p&content-id=amzn1.sym.ef550dd5-ff16-4387-8a19-a57b581819af&pf_rd_p=ef550dd5-ff16-4387-8a19-a57b581819af&pf_rd_r=WXWVSQ35CWW6MNDJ243E&pd_rd_wg=RJVKU&pd_rd_r=70539a6a-491b-491e-820e-878ed6f10cd9&pd_rd_i=B003XQEVMQ

 

[The Thriller]

Huh? That doesn't make any kind of sense so I think I'm putting you back on ignore.

Bye

Trust me, you’re not missing out on his nonsensical posts. He rarely has any relevant facts but always has poorly formed opinions on… well everything.

 

[The Thriller]

I hate that trump highjacked the flag as if its his own personal prop or piece of merchandise.

I really agree with this. I hate how the flag has become cheap tribal virtue signaling. again, it’s all performative patriotism and it cheapens the real thing; being concerned for your fellow neighbor, being responsible and law abiding, not being an ******* and yelling at a bus driver or Costco worker for asking you to wear a mask.

 

[The Thriller]

Not so much with religion, but in the past few years I've been less comfortable with our somewhat forced patriotism. We don't need the national anthem played before every possible sporting event, when it would make more sense for international games, games on patriotic holidays, all-star games and championships. Make it special.

And making kids recite the Pledge of Allegience every day at school creeps me out. Seems so Hitler's Youth'ish. The flag is a symbol, not a thing to worship.

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Has the marriage between America and the LDS church specifically and Christianity generally always been a part of our society?

I feel like it’s been put on steroids over the last few decades. In fact, I’d wager that most self-identified “Christians” are more or less driven by what they identify as Republican politics and identity more than the Christian identity. It’s interesting how Black and Hispanic Christians still don’t identify as Republican or didn’t vote for trump.

Why?

And how does this play out as views accepting gay marriage and abortion rights increase?

Most White Americans who regularly attend worship services voted for Trump in 2020

Among White Americans, worship service attendance remains highly correlated with presidential vote choice.

www.pewresearch.org

 

[JazzGal]

I was taught growing up, especially at church (LDS), that America is God's chosen land. He led Columbus here. Manifest Destiny was God's way of spreading Christianity from ocean to ocean. I didn't even question that for some reason God didn't love his brown and black children the same way he loved his white children. It was just the way it was. Everything was done with God's approval, and it was up to us to make sure that it stayed the way God wanted. There were some token changes along the way (like blacks being able to hold the priesthood), but it seemed like those happened mostly because of political pressure and wanting to do missionary work in Africa to fulfill the goal of spreading the gospel to the world. Patriotism didn't feel forced to me because I was already all in. Granted, people weren't weird about the flag like they are now.

Mormonism had its own beliefs that were a little different than mainstream Christianity, but I think there is a lot of similarity in the reasons for exaggerated love of country. And now that Christianity rates are declining, they are ramping up patriotism as a moral test.

 

[JazzGal]

I had really been struggling this year to determine how I felt about Independence Day. It boiled down to this. I recognize that we are not the exceptional country that I believed in growing up. We have had an ugly past and made terrible human rights and other errors. BUT, we were founded on many principles that I still believe in. And there are still people who keep trying to live up to these principles. And as long as this is true, I will still be happy that this is my country. As far as I can tell, there isn't a perfect country in the world (although there are a few I wouldn't mind trying).

Dan Rather made a post on Twitter that I really liked yesterday. Here's a part:

Our founding documents contain some of the most aspirational rhetoric in the history of human self-governance. But when it comes to fully reconciling our lofty ideals with reality, the United States has staggered its way toward the present — lurching, plodding, accelerating, and sometimes even regressing.

We have come a long way, but we still have a long way to go to establish a just and “more perfect union.” Perfection is of course impossible, but we can be better than we are. This is the core challenge for each new generation of Americans. . . .

The United States of America is and always has been an idea more than a place. Yes, we are rooted in our past, but just as importantly, America is about the dreams of our future. I have borne witness to too much heroism and courage to not celebrate what this nation has been and can be in the future. I have seen it in battles in far-off wars and marches in our streets, on picket lines and in courthouses, in classrooms and community centers, in mass movements and quiet defiance. . . .

On this Fourth of July, I am celebrating fully and without reservation. I honor it as a day of struggle, and the struggle endures. I recognize it as a day of reflection on how fragile our rights and democracy are. But I also see it as a day to acknowledge how far we have come and how far we can go. I will never accede to an America where that journey is over. And in this I know that I am not alone.

 

[AlaskanAssassin]

I had really been struggling this year to determine how I felt about Independence Day. It boiled down to this. I recognize that we are not the exceptional country that I believed in growing up. We have had an ugly past and made terrible human rights and other errors. BUT, we were founded on many principles that I still believe in. And there are still people who keep trying to live up to these principles. And as long as this is true, I will still be happy that this is my country. As far as I can tell, there isn't a perfect country in the world (although there are a few I wouldn't mind trying).

Great thoughts here. I wouldn't consider myself "overly-patriotic", but I love my country and consider myself fortunte to live here. Despite what some might suggest, there are a lot of places much worse. Overall, we are certainly less patriotic of a country than we were a generation or two ago. My Dad showed me some old pictures of the 4th of July when he was a kid, basically every house was flying the US flag. It would be interesting if there was a measurement of how "patriotic" a country's citizens were. I've always found that Canadians and the British have quite a lot of patriotic zeal. When I was in Beijing a few years ago, the national flag was flying everywhere, although that might just be due to the large number of government buildings.

One thing I noted from your comment was the idea that the US was founding on principles you believe in. I've come to realize more and more over time that most Americans feel the same way. We believe in life, liberty, and ther pursuit of happiness. We believe in Freedom and equility. Our differences lie in our interpretation of those concepts, and the ideal means to achieve them.

 

[Rubashov]

The myth of American exceptionalism is hilarious. I remember being shocked by the whole flag thing in America. My first trip over there as a kid it was everywhere. In Australia you hardly ever saw the flag growing up, no ****er would have it on their lawn. Most people, myself included felt more attachment to their state than to anything approaching the idea of Australia. It wasn't until the late 80s that we started playing sport in "national leagues", I think most people had more of an attachment to their football clubs than the country. That has kind of changed in the last 20 years a lot more of this flag waving **** gets rammed down your throat and it ***** me. Every other mid season non entity sporting event has some worthless *** singing the anthem to a bemused and impatient crowd, the AFL are awful for this, wrapping themselves in the flag at every opportunity. Im for it at national team fixtures but don't have some toss pot sing, just play the music.

Watch the French at the rugby feels organic and good, even tho i know they're all right wing *****.



We never used to do a bunch of public religion in this country or flag waving but Australians have done a decent job of looking after each other. (unless your aboriginal or an immigrant of course)

 

[Red]

“The root of the discord lies in the fact that many Christians have embraced the worst aspects of our culture and our politics. When the Christian faith is politicized, churches become repositories not of grace but of grievances, places where tribal identities are reinforced, where fears are nurtured, and where aggression and nastiness are sacralized. The result is not only wounding the nation; it’s having a devastating impact on the Christian faith.

How is it that evangelical Christianity has become, for too many of its adherents, a political religion? The historian George Marsden told me that political loyalties can sometimes be so strong that they create a religious-like faith that overrides or even transforms a more traditional religious faith. The United States has largely avoided the most virulent expressions of such political religions. None has succeeded for very long—at least, until now….

…..“When Trump was able to add open hatred and resentments to the political-religious stance of ‘true believers,’ it crossed a line,” Marsden said. “Tribal instincts seem to have become overwhelming.” The dominance of political religion over professed religion is seen in how, for many, the loyalty to Trump became a blind allegiance. The result is that many Christian followers of Trump “have come to see a gospel of hatreds, resentments, vilifications, put-downs, and insults as expressions of their Christianity, for which they too should be willing to fight.”

The Evangelical Church Is Breaking Apart

Christians must reclaim Jesus from his church.

www.theatlantic.com

 

[Al-O-Meter]

I had really been struggling this year to determine how I felt about Independence Day.

No mixed feelings here. I think Bill Pullman is the best film president in cinematic history. The cast is great. The special effects still hold up and the character design of the aliens is solid. The clip of the alien ship blowing up the White House with the helicopter in the foreground is nothing short of iconic. I watched the film with my son this past weekend. His favorite part was right after the main weapon had fired on NYC and a wave of flame was engulfing everything, Vivica Fox's character rushed out of her car with her kid in her arms to kick open a maintenance door to escape certain death when the shot cuts to her dog still standing in the road. She calls to the dog who leaps around cars to make it through the maintenance door just as the wall of flame reached them. Great stuff. I don't know how anyone could be on the fence about that movie.

 

[JimLes]

We never used to do a bunch of public religion in this country or flag waving but Australians have done a decent job of looking after each other.

I guess there is some honour among thieves.

 

[Safetydan]

No mixed feelings here. I think Bill Pullman is the best film president in cinematic history. The cast is great. The special effects still hold up and the character design of the aliens is solid. The clip of the alien ship blowing up the White House with the helicopter in the foreground is nothing short of iconic. I watched the film with my son this past weekend. His favorite part was right after the main weapon had fired on NYC and a wave of flame was engulfing everything, Vivica Fox's character rushed out of her car with her kid in her arms to kick open a maintenance door to escape certain death when the shot cuts to her dog still standing in the road. She calls to the dog who leaps around cars to make it through the maintenance door just as the wall of flame reached them. Great stuff. I don't know how anyone could be on the fence about that movie.

Premise 7/10. Execution 2/10

 

[Al-O-Meter]

Premise 7/10. Execution 2/10

Communist!

 

[One Brow]

Premise 7/10. Execution 2/10

Half the length would have been pretty good. The power of a good editor.

 

[JimLes]

I have owned one flag in my life. It's a Canadian flag, but I have defaced the white field by crudely writing Calgary on it with a permanent marker. Looks something like these flags:

Why? Because it's my football flag. I got it in 2004 at a Walmart in a bad part of Edmonton so I could take it to a Canada-Honduras men's World Cup qualifying game. I have since taken it to many other men's games, as well as women's games and youth national team games. Key word being national. I do frequent games of our local Cavalry FC as well, but it would never occur to me to bring this flag to their games. They're a club team. You bring club flags to club team games. You bring a national flag to national team games.

The flag is, of course, aimed at others. 15 years ago, I use to bring it because out of 5000 people in a 50000-seat stadium, more than half would be away fans. I wanted players I had followed and supported over the years to know they have fans in the stands, too. I also wanted the Mexican and Honduran fans to see that hey, we're not all just hockey fans.

I also understand that the flag can be used in this context outside of sports. In Quebec, someone putting a Canadian flag on their house is a pretty loud signal that one is a federalist. Likewise, only putting a Quebec flag on one's house would send the message that one is a sovereigntist. I get that. It's a society where the last 50 years, there has been serious discussion about identity, the future of the society, the relationship with Canada.

What I don't get is why in the course of my extensive travels over the western USA, the areas I've seen the most flags in are the least diverse ones. I didn't see very many flags at all in the University District in Seattle or downtown Phoenix, but rural(I guess the whole state is rural) Montana is full of them. Same goes for Idaho and those SLC suburbs I've driven through. What is the message and who is aimed at? No one in Montana is trying to separate from the USA, except maybe some of the whackos who wave the flag the most. You're a proud, white, Christian American? So is everyone else in a 5-mile radius from you. It just makes very little sense to me. It's like having a sticker saying "My kid's on the honour roll at..." on your car when every kid at the school is on the honour roll. I don't get the point.

 

[Jazz Spazz]

I remember about 12ish years ago I was attending an LDS singles ward. I was the Sunday School president. This one Sunday we had some exchange students from Germany attend. I welcomed them and asked if they’d like to sit next to me. This was the Sunday before the 4th. One of the “hymns” sung during sacrament meeting, which is the primary meeting for LDS people, was the national anthem. The students reacted with shock. We got talking and it hit me, why were we singing the national anthem in a Christ-centered meeting? How is this inclusive to others? Christianity doesn’t recognize other nationalities, as we’re all children of god who have made mistakes. Marrying religion with politics or country (nationalism) is dangerous. This was again, 2009-2010ish?

Has anyone else had this type of experience before?

I have a different take and experience than others in this thread.

I've always understood that we celebrate and support whatever country we are in to the best of our abilities and while there work to make things better from within.
The teaching that stood as the backbone of this was for me Article of Faith 12 "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

For me that means supporting the country I live in, and also for me that means knowing the pledge of allegiance and at times singing the national anthem.
We have at times sung the national anthem at church meetings around the 4th.
While I don't have an extensive travel history, I had always hoped that meant the national songs/anthems/pledges or whatever is equivalent were supported in those other countries.

The church is not necessarily in support of the US, but is in support of and/or respects all countries and encourages members to adhere to laws in the country they live in.

This is definitely not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is as a whole in support of the US and that the US is better than any and all other countries. My take is that we are in support of people. All people.

 

[JazzGal]

No mixed feelings here. I think Bill Pullman is the best film president in cinematic history. The cast is great. The special effects still hold up and the character design of the aliens is solid. The clip of the alien ship blowing up the White House with the helicopter in the foreground is nothing short of iconic. I watched the film with my son this past weekend. His favorite part was right after the main weapon had fired on NYC and a wave of flame was engulfing everything, Vivica Fox's character rushed out of her car with her kid in her arms to kick open a maintenance door to escape certain death when the shot cuts to her dog still standing in the road. She calls to the dog who leaps around cars to make it through the maintenance door just as the wall of flame reached them. Great stuff. I don't know how anyone could be on the fence about that movie.

Haha. I love this movie as well.

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[JazzGal]

I have a different take and experience than others in this thread.

I've always understood that we celebrate and support whatever country we are in to the best of our abilities and while there work to make things better from within.
The teaching that stood as the backbone of this was for me Article of Faith 12 "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law."

For me that means supporting the country I live in, and also for me that means knowing the pledge of allegiance and at times singing the national anthem.
We have at times sung the national anthem at church meetings around the 4th.
While I don't have an extensive travel history, I had always hoped that meant the national songs/anthems/pledges or whatever is equivalent were supported in those other countries.

The church is not necessarily in support of the US, but is in support of and/or respects all countries and encourages members to adhere to laws in the country they live in.

This is definitely not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is as a whole in support of the US and that the US is better than any and all other countries. My take is that we are in support of people. All people.

You must be much younger than me. This is not at all how it was when I was growing up. As they tried to become more of an international church in the 80s, the rhetoric was toned down some.

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[Jazz Spazz]

You must be much younger than me. This is not at all how it was when I was growing up. As they tried to become more of an international church in the 80s, the rhetoric was toned down some.

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Maybe so. I also was not in Utah and was somewhere more diverse. There wasn't a race or ethnicity that was a majority, and the diversity of religions or no religion was much greater than Utah. Living in Utah both as a member of the LDS church or not as a member of it is much different than somewhere else. Honestly I think it's a much different experience outside of the core of where most church member historically have been the majority. Much of what we learn in life is reading between the lines to go along with what is in text. While it still exists, I felt that there was less being fake and less hypocrisy outside of Utah. It could have to do with the pressure to conform to a majority, or not wanting to feel different or outside of something. I'm not sure exactly.

Either way, that was just my understanding from my life experience. Maybe it was location, maybe it was times changing and maybe it was an intentional change of rhetoric or focus? I don't know other than to say what I have lived and my communications with those I know.

I do know that there are always things we as individuals or we as groups of people with whatever organizations we have, can do better. I like to think that both try to improve and fix things that need fixed.

I'm going to hold on to my view and hope that church members in whatever country they are in support that country as much as they can, and strive to make a positive difference where they can. I hope people helping people can be a main focus.

I'm sorry your experience was not as positive as mine was. I don't like it when someone or some group tries to pressure me to be something or do something. It has to make sense to me, and on my own timetable.

Great, now I'm rambling. Thanks for your posts. I'll leave it at that.