sportsnut1232
Member
Yes in most cases 2 superstars are needed. Those Detroit teams had great coaching and amazing team chemistry. The players complemented each other perfectly. That just doesn't happen a lot.
5 year plan-- Are the Jazz focused on winning a title?
- Thread starter Lakers_Slapper
- Start date
Yes in most cases 2 superstars are needed. Those Detroit teams had great coaching and amazing team chemistry. The players complemented each other perfectly. That just doesn't happen a lot.
sportsnut1232
Member
That's what I see happening too. Kanter will complement Favors perfectly, and with Memo and Millsap off the bench it will be a perfect frontcourt. At that point we could see what we could get for Al. Whether that's Danny Granger or someone else, we could fill the rest of the holes on our roster.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
A healthy Boozer, AK, Deron and Okur, with a young shooter expected to develop into a solid NBA player in CJ. That seemed like a very, very good lineup to me (and many others). Even before Deron, didn't the Jazz start out 12-1 one year with McLeod running the point? And then Utah went to the WCF a few years later. I'd say KOC did a VERY good job at rebuilding after Stockton and Malone. Compare Utah to Boston post-Bird, the Lakers after Magic and Chicago sans Jordan. Those franchises took YEARS to get back to contending. And they are NBA-elite cities, not a remote outpost like Salt Lake.
Larry H. bet the farm on AK, once a rising young star with very unique skills. Larry even admitted at the time that AK wasn't a "MAX" player, but he believe he would be by the time his contract was finished. KOC was aggressive in getting Boozer and Okur - had to overpay both of them to outbid others and get them to come to Utah. Then he hoodwinked the Blazers into settling on Martell Webster instead of drafting CP3 or DWill. Yes, I'm disappointed the team hasn't won a title, but I think KOC and Larry/Greg have been pretty good about taking chances, while trying to work within the confines of a small-market team with sizable, but not unlimited resources. I don't fault them for not matching Wesley's offer. I applaud them for lettting Boozer go and then trading DWill.
I'm actually as excited to see this young team develop as I was back in that miracle season of AK and the no-namers who almost made the playoffs. Jazz have the makings of a good team. I think our draft will be solid and I think one more FA signing or a trade will be forthcoming at some point. Perhaps the GSW pick + expiring(s) near the deadline to pick up a solid veteran wing. And with AK off the books now and Okur next season, the Jazz will be in a strong financial position - and that can certainly be valuable come trade discussions.
asian_roger
Well-Known Member
My god that was extremely well said. We never hit the jackpot, but we've been pretty damn close every year. We will be in the playoffs soon!
They also benefitted from an inopportune Karl Malone injury and a Shaq-Kobe season-long feud to win their only title. You need karma or luck or whatever too. Jazz just dont seem to have enough of it, especially with injuries these days.
As for that Duncan model easier said than done. Jazz need to pick a year when the draft is going to be really great at the top in big men and then tank that season like the Spurs did to land someone like that. Even then there are no guarantees that you will end up getting a Duncn. PLayers like that dont just come along every 2 or 3 years.
Jazz just have to hope that one of their numerous draft picks turns out to be as good if not better than Deron and then put pieces around that and then hope that you can emulate the Thunder.
Except that a lot of peeple could see the defensive holes and the lack ofmental/physical toughness. And Miles turned out to be a joke.
which was another BIG mistake...
So you actually were pretty happy to see the Jazz throw up their hands and dismantle that team and admit that their rebuilding was a failure? Because that one WCF appearance seemed like a fluke as the years went by, when the Jazz got eliminated earlier and earlier in the playoffs.
The 4 years that they made the playoffs, not ONCE did the Jazz finish as a top 4 seed in the West claiming homecourt atleast in the first round. Agree you dont have to be a top 4 seed necessarily to advance deep in the playoffs, but not even finishing once in the top 4 in 4 years? That spoke of a team that lacked the intangibles and physical/mental toughness that I mentioned earlier.
Jazz were stuck with a team that had glaring flaws but just couldnt do anything about it mostly because of AK's contract and partly because of other reasons
I don't know, Glass. I think not matching Wes eventually resulted into our team collapsing and as a result Deron trade and another rebuilding. We basically had to play 4 on 5 nearly all year last year. CJ Miles and Raja Bell were horrible. Had Wes been there, it’s like adding 20% to our starting line-up strength. Hell, Wes took starting job from Batum and Roy last year for Blazers. And was our best defender as a rookie. If we had Wes, we could have weathered the storm, while Hayward was developing and AJ played himself into shape. Think about it: Deron, Wes, Hayward, Millsap, AJ next year would be an extremely strong line-up. And if Memo recovers, with AK, Watson, Fess on the bench, this team is rock solid. Letting Wes go was a big mistake.
With that said, we got lucky in the lottery and have a chance to rebuild right away. I just hope Wolves or Cavs will be dumb enough to take Kanter with #1 or 2, and we will get Williams or Irving as our new star to build around.
@vj_74
The rebuilding was NOT a failure. Sure we didn't get a championship, but we never completely sucked either. I've loved the last 5 years of Jazz basketball. They have been fantastic and we have been spoiled. We have had a team that usually has one of the top home records in the league. That means that no matter what team is coming to play in Salt Lake City, I can feel comfortable forking out the money for tickets because I know I'm gonna see a good game. Small market teams usually can't expect their team to the teams w/ Kobe, DRose, Shaq, Garnett's, etc.
Last year was the fluke. The WCF run was not a fluke. Every year we lost to the team that went on to go to the Finals.
The rebuilding was NOT a failure. Sure we didn't get a championship, but we never completely sucked either. I've loved the last 5 years of Jazz basketball. They have been fantastic and we have been spoiled. We have had a team that usually has one of the top home records in the league. That means that no matter what team is coming to play in Salt Lake City, I can feel comfortable forking out the money for tickets because I know I'm gonna see a good game. Small market teams usually can't expect their team to the teams w/ Kobe, DRose, Shaq, Garnett's, etc.
Last year was the fluke. The WCF run was not a fluke. Every year we lost to the team that went on to go to the Finals.
NotDeadYet
Well-Known Member
Well said, Glass. As far as Matthews goes, I've read where KoC saw Hayward as a SG on the Jazz, where he's got a size matchup advantage most games. At SF, we lose that matchup advantage much more frequently. Besides, Matthews' salary just wasn't gonna work with AK & Millsap salaries, not to mention Boozer & Okur. Yeah. the AK thing just severely limited us...
SojoDave
Well-Known Member
Many teams have had to go through long rebuilding processes. Some teams are in an eternal rebuilding process (Clippers, Golden State, etc.). The problem with going through a rebuilding process is the temptation to take a short cut. Teams thinking they can make a move, and shorten the process. If the short cut doesn't work, it just lengthens the rebuilding process. It will be interesting to see if Jazz fans would be patient to go through a long drawn out rebuilding process. KOC has a lot of pressure to rebuild while trying to win. I think if we had three years of losing, this team could be gone from this market.
I have never been a fan of the "if we're not contending for a championship every year we suck" way of thinking.
The Spurs had two tank years many years ago that got them the # 1 pick to take Robinson and Duncan. Anyone want to go through that in order to get the #1 pick? I don't.
There are 30 teams in the league. They would all love to win a championship. Even for the biggest markets, the stars have to align perfectly because 29 others are trying to stop you.
Some teams are consistently awful, others are consistently good. Despite some distinct disadvantages, the Jazz have always been in the consistently good category.
Would I like them to win a championship? Of course. Despite the disadvantages, they have always had a plan. We hoped AK, and then the Boozer/Okur signings would do the trick. We hoped DWill would be the missing link. None of those plans worked. Just like the plans of 29 other teams each year.
What I really hate are message board posters who say "Since it didn't work, the Jazz Front Office are incompetent idiots who really don't care about winning."
They could see that the plan didn't work out as they and we hoped, so they are now trying a different strategy. Good idea. It took a few years to see that the plan was not going to lead to a championship. Once they saw that, they moved on to another plan. A lot of teams just keep working on the same failed strategy year after year. They are the ones in the consistently bad camp. I would rather see the Jazz keep trying. I hope someday it will work.
The day I will stop being a fan is the day the Jazz start acting like the Clippers and just accept mediocrity year after year.
In the meantime. I have high hopes for the current plan. I hope it works.
The Spurs had two tank years many years ago that got them the # 1 pick to take Robinson and Duncan. Anyone want to go through that in order to get the #1 pick? I don't.
There are 30 teams in the league. They would all love to win a championship. Even for the biggest markets, the stars have to align perfectly because 29 others are trying to stop you.
Some teams are consistently awful, others are consistently good. Despite some distinct disadvantages, the Jazz have always been in the consistently good category.
Would I like them to win a championship? Of course. Despite the disadvantages, they have always had a plan. We hoped AK, and then the Boozer/Okur signings would do the trick. We hoped DWill would be the missing link. None of those plans worked. Just like the plans of 29 other teams each year.
What I really hate are message board posters who say "Since it didn't work, the Jazz Front Office are incompetent idiots who really don't care about winning."
They could see that the plan didn't work out as they and we hoped, so they are now trying a different strategy. Good idea. It took a few years to see that the plan was not going to lead to a championship. Once they saw that, they moved on to another plan. A lot of teams just keep working on the same failed strategy year after year. They are the ones in the consistently bad camp. I would rather see the Jazz keep trying. I hope someday it will work.
The day I will stop being a fan is the day the Jazz start acting like the Clippers and just accept mediocrity year after year.
In the meantime. I have high hopes for the current plan. I hope it works.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Hindsight makes us all geniuses, doesn't it? No, you don't see the defensive flaws until AFTER long-term contracts have been signed, especially with young rising stars like Carlos and Memo. In those years the Jazz didn't finish as one of the top seeds, there were always injury problems. I know, all legit on Boozer's part. I don't blame KOC and Larry H. for continuing to proclaim, "let's see what this team can do when healthy." We saw flashes off brilliance from them. I mentioned the amazing start WITHOUT Deron. There were solid winning streaks during the subsequent seasons. Unless you panic and start taking on even worse contracts, it takes a few years to get rid of major players. At least we didn't end up like the Knicks. Seems like every player they wanted to trade brought a worse player/contract in return.
I agree re: AK. It WAS a mistake not to trade him for Marion...if the deal was straight up as some claimed (while others said Millsap was part of the deal). That's on Larry H. But I don't know how different that would have made the team. Marion would have been gone after his expiring. The Jazz would have been under the tax threshold but not under the cap. Maybe Utah would have retained Maynor (by not having to dump Harp's contract). But they still would not have matched that outrageous deal for Matthews. Maybe they would have kept Brewer until the end of the season. But his agent had already set the bar way too high during contract discussions before the preseason.
And KOC did try to trade AK this year - at least twice we know of. The first deal as leaked in the media and fell apart. The second time was to New Jersey as KOC all but admitted during his explanation of the Deron deal - i.e. he had called NJ to ask if they were interested in a certain veteran player (ummm, I wonder who that could be?). NJ said no and then he asked if they were interested in any other Utah players. Smart negotiating if you ask me. Make the other team acknowledge interest and blow you away with an offer.
KOC hasn't been perfect...no GM is. But he's done a great job given the constraints under which he operates.
Stifle Tower
Punch Bowl Re-Filler
Many teams have had to go through long rebuilding processes. Some teams are in an eternal rebuilding process (Clippers, Golden State, etc.). The problem with going through a rebuilding process is the temptation to take a short cut. Teams thinking they can make a move, and shorten the process. If the short cut doesn't work, it just lengthens the rebuilding process. It will be interesting to see if Jazz fans would be patient to go through a long drawn out rebuilding process. KOC has a lot of pressure to rebuild while trying to win. I think if we had three years of losing, this team could be gone from this market.
Good observation. Jazz were able to rebuild quickly after Stockton/Malone because those two huge salaries were immediately removed off the books. It allowed the Jazz to get Okur and Boozer after making some offer sheets the previous year that were matched or having other FA's decide to sign elsewhere. This time is different. There are still big salaries remaining (Jefferson, Okur and Harris); you could also add Millsap to that list. But the team has a lot more talent than before. IMO, the rebuilding is already 50% complete. Favors and Hayward are definitely cornerstones. Jefferson and Millsap can be, although KOC probably is open to trading either for the right deal. WE need a PG (Harris isn't the long-term solution) and a SF. Then you fill in with competent backups.
Unless the Jazz pick someone like Valanciunas, the #3 and #12 picks should be able to contribute some as backups this season. Even with no other changes, I think the Jazz should be close to a .500 team. They were playing that way over the last couple of weeks. What team wouldn't look a little shaky after a coach quits and then their "franchise" player is unexpectedly traded? But they settled down, got some positive contributions from the rookies, Jefferson became the main scorer and I think we all enjoyed seeing some big wins down the stretch.