What's new

A Place for Conservatives

Those are legit concerns. From a conservatives perspective it doesn't feel like the public debate we are hearing is among scientists, though. It feels like it is among politicians. And some of them are in full whack-a-doodle mode. The Green New Deal is completely insane, for example. Getting rid of cows? Rebuilding every building? How would that even be possible? Eliminating all fossil fuels in 12 years? Flat out insanity! Especially since it's a guarantee that China and India would not be doing the same, and as a result they would destroy us economically. If the questions that article is asking have been answered, please point me to the source.

Yes, well, that's really going to take an exhausting effort on my part, as far as pointing you to sources that is. For the full list of questions, which in that Heartland article are really observations I thought, and not really questions. I can look for answers within the literature, but it will amount to counterpoints to those observations, and since those listed observations from that article are from the Heartland Institute, I see no reason why I should trust them as accurate observations to begin with, since, from my perspective, the Heartland Institute's agenda is entirely political. Just as from your perspective, you did not trust the answers to climate skeptics provided by the skeptical science site I posted earlier.

Speaking as a layman again, because that is all I am where climate science is concerned. So, it's likely I will not bother trying to find those sources for you. You will, however, likely find them covered in that skeptical science site, which addresses just under 200 objections raised by science skeptics.

Sure the public debate is among politicians. Some scientific debates have political dimensions. Even something seemingly non-political, like the question of when the Americas were first settled by man, had political offshoots, such as in the Kennewick Man episode, which pitted American archaeologists against First Nation people's. That's an obscure reference for most I'm sure; just an example of how an archaeological debate spawned a fierce political struggle.

Obviously the debate over climate change, and whether humans are influencing global warming, has huge political implications. Most politicians are not also climate scientists, but when all the vested interests are added up, the political dimension is overwhelming the scientific debate. Within this thread, I've mentioned peer reviewed literature at times, as a standard in science. But peer review has its flaws too, as this essay summarizes nicely, so, in the interest of objectivity, I post it. It's illuminating, and in this essay, it's applied directly to climate science:

https://www.thegwpf.org/content/uploads/2016/10/PeerReview.pdf
 
Last edited:
and now it seems that the current leaders of the political side of this movement are claiming that we are currently 12 years away from the new doomsday.

It was my understanding that the scientists, and I am going to have to refresh my memory by seeing if it was the scientists behind the UN report, or those behind the administration's latest National Climate Assessment, or both, who stated we would reach a "point of no return" by 2030. It was the scientists who raised that assessment, not the politicians. Yes, some politicians adopted it, because, apparently, they took it seriously. But it was not the current "leaders of the political side of this movement" who invented this claim.

I'm also not sure "doomsday" is the right word, either. I believe what is being claimed is that the human-inhabitable regions of the globe will shrink as a result of global warming. The word "doomsday" almost implies some kind of end times or human extinction event to me. It conjures images like that in my mind. I believe, if the scientists are correct, that we are talking about shrinking the human-inhabitable zone on the planet. Through rising seas, (and that aspect is expected to have a greater impact where I live), increasing desert regions, etc.
 
Yes, an Op-Ed can have proof of something.

tenor.gif
 
Hey heathme, can i get in on some of that sweet ignore action?


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
 
I don't deny climate science. But what I do feel uncomfortable about is climate change as a political tool. It seems like there is a very strong connection between climate science and the political solutions to climate change. I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, I'm just saying that many of the people most worried about climate change have similar ideas about what our government should be doing to "fix" it.

I don't find any of the current solutions to be meaningful in regard to the actual climate change problem. I also don't see the problems as being anywhere near as dire as they are overwhelmingly painted as being.

My opinion on climate change is that fist, it's going to happen (is happening), so this idea of "point of no return" is silly. But second, it isn't going to destroy humanity. Not even close. Humans live in every climate this planet has to offer. We have for thousands of years. even without modern technology we are the most flexible species I know of when it comes to what kind of climate we can survive and even thrive in. So climate change is not going to cause mass extinction of humans. It just isn't. Third, the solution is not and has never been to go backwards. We will solve this issue by moving forward. Tiny homes, tiny cars, radically reduced consumption, symbolic recycling, these are completely meaningless ways to deal with climate change. Absolutely meaningless.

So to have this idea that if you accept that climate change is happening you must also accept that the political solutions currently being suggested are absolutely non-negotiable is a no-go for me. I'm ready to ride the change out and see where we're at on the other side.
 
Has the peer review ever rejected any alarmist theory as hogwash? Seriously, has anyone ever been singled out as being way too extreme and alarmist by the scientific community? Give me names of scientists who have been proven to be overstating the threat and have been publicly called out for doing so. It strains credibility to me that every single timeline escalation is universally accepted. Every angle of science has someone that strains credibility. Who are those people on the pro global warming side?

It is possible that this happens under the radar and isn't covered in the non-science community. Because if there are exactly zero people identified as misstating things on one side of the argument in peer review, it appears to be more like peer pressure.
 
Has the peer review ever rejected any alarmist theory as hogwash? Seriously, has anyone ever been singled out as being way too extreme and alarmist by the scientific community? Give me names of scientists who have been proven to be overstating the threat and have been publicly called out for doing so. It strains credibility to me that every single timeline escalation is universally accepted. Every angle of science has someone that strains credibility. Who are those people on the pro global warming side?

It is possible that this happens under the radar and isn't covered in the non-science community. Because if there are exactly zero people identified as misstating things on one side of the argument in peer review, it appears to be more like peer pressure.
Not the scientific community but I was listening to NPR yesterday and they had a young student, elementary or middle school age, giving a comment in an interview, this student was protesting because of climate change and the student said they had to act because the adults weren't taking action and it needs to happen or they won't live to be 30 years old. The host of the show, who wasn't the one doing the interview, basically closed with a "right on!" and I was like someone should tell that child that while this might be a very significant issue, in no way at all does it mean we're all going to be dead in 20 years. I certainly don't think we should be feeding our young children the notion that we're actually on the verge of extinction. We aren't.
 
Not the scientific community but I was listening to NPR yesterday and they had a young student, elementary or middle school age, giving a comment in an interview, this student was protesting because of climate change and the student said they had to act because the adults weren't taking action and it needs to happen or they won't live to be 30 years old. The host of the show, who wasn't the one doing the interview, basically closed with a "right on!" and I was like someone should tell that child that while this might be a very significant issue, in no way at all does it mean we're all going to be dead in 20 years. I certainly don't think we should be feeding our young children the notion that we're actually on the verge of extinction. We aren't.

Of course we are all going to die. The science is settled!
 
Low key, the "Big Bang" theory will be disproved in our lifetmes as well.
Just so people don't confuse what I'm saying with what you're saying I'm going to post an essay by Isaac Asimov.

https://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm

I RECEIVED a letter the other day. It was handwritten in crabbed penmanship so that it was very difficult to read. Nevertheless, I tried to make it out just in case it might prove to be important. In the first sentence, the writer told me he was majoring in English literature, but felt he needed to teach me science. (I sighed a bit, for I knew very few English Lit majors who are equipped to teach me science, but I am very aware of the vast state of my ignorance and I am prepared to learn as much as I can from anyone, so I read on.)

It seemed that in one of my innumerable essays, I had expressed a certain gladness at living in a century in which we finally got the basis of the universe straight.

I didn't go into detail in the matter, but what I meant was that we now know the basic rules governing the universe, together with the gravitational interrelationships of its gross components, as shown in the theory of relativity worked out between 1905 and 1916. We also know the basic rules governing the subatomic particles and their interrelationships, since these are very neatly described by the quantum theory worked out between 1900 and 1930. What's more, we have found that the galaxies and clusters of galaxies are the basic units of the physical universe, as discovered between 1920 and 1930.

These are all twentieth-century discoveries, you see.

The young specialist in English Lit, having quoted me, went on to lecture me severely on the fact that in every century people have thought they understood the universe at last, and in every century they were proved to be wrong. It follows that the one thing we can say about our modern "knowledge" is that it is wrong. The young man then quoted with approval what Socrates had said on learning that the Delphic oracle had proclaimed him the wisest man in Greece. "If I am the wisest man," said Socrates, "it is because I alone know that I know nothing." the implication was that I was very foolish because I was under the impression I knew a great deal.

My answer to him was, "John, when people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

The basic trouble, you see, is that people think that "right" and "wrong" are absolute; that everything that isn't perfectly and completely right is totally and equally wrong.

However, I don't think that's so. It seems to me that right and wrong are fuzzy concepts, and I will devote this essay to an explanation of why I think so.

When my friend the English literature expert tells me that in every century scientists think they have worked out the universe and are always wrong, what I want to know is how wrong are they? Are they always wrong to the same degree? Let's take an example.

In the early days of civilization, the general feeling was that the earth was flat. This was not because people were stupid, or because they were intent on believing silly things. They felt it was flat on the basis of sound evidence. It was not just a matter of "That's how it looks," because the earth does not look flat. It looks chaotically bumpy, with hills, valleys, ravines, cliffs, and so on.

Of course there are plains where, over limited areas, the earth's surface does look fairly flat. One of those plains is in the Tigris-Euphrates area, where the first historical civilization (one with writing) developed, that of the Sumerians.

Perhaps it was the appearance of the plain that persuaded the clever Sumerians to accept the generalization that the earth was flat; that if you somehow evened out all the elevations and depressions, you would be left with flatness. Contributing to the notion may have been the fact that stretches of water (ponds and lakes) looked pretty flat on quiet days.

Another way of looking at it is to ask what is the "curvature" of the earth's surface Over a considerable length, how much does the surface deviate (on the average) from perfect flatness. The flat-earth theory would make it seem that the surface doesn't deviate from flatness at all, that its curvature is 0 to the mile.

Nowadays, of course, we are taught that the flat-earth theory is wrong; that it is all wrong, terribly wrong, absolutely. But it isn't. The curvature of the earth is nearly 0 per mile, so that although the flat-earth theory is wrong, it happens to be nearly right. That's why the theory lasted so long.

There were reasons, to be sure, to find the flat-earth theory unsatisfactory and, about 350 B.C., the Greek philosopher Aristotle summarized them. First, certain stars disappeared beyond the Southern Hemisphere as one traveled north, and beyond the Northern Hemisphere as one traveled south. Second, the earth's shadow on the moon during a lunar eclipse was always the arc of a circle. Third, here on the earth itself, ships disappeared beyond the horizon hull-first in whatever direction they were traveling.

All three observations could not be reasonably explained if the earth's surface were flat, but could be explained by assuming the earth to be a sphere.

What's more, Aristotle believed that all solid matter tended to move toward a common center, and if solid matter did this, it would end up as a sphere. A given volume of matter is, on the average, closer to a common center if it is a sphere than if it is any other shape whatever.

About a century after Aristotle, the Greek philosopher Eratosthenes noted that the sun cast a shadow of different lengths at different latitudes (all the shadows would be the same length if the earth's surface were flat). From the difference in shadow length, he calculated the size of the earthly sphere and it turned out to be 25,000 miles in circumference.

The curvature of such a sphere is about 0.000126 per mile, a quantity very close to 0 per mile, as you can see, and one not easily measured by the techniques at the disposal of the ancients. The tiny difference between 0 and 0.000126 accounts for the fact that it took so long to pass from the flat earth to the spherical earth.

Mind you, even a tiny difference, such as that between 0 and 0.000126, can be extremely important. That difference mounts up. The earth cannot be mapped over large areas with any accuracy at all if the difference isn't taken into account and if the earth isn't considered a sphere rather than a flat surface. Long ocean voyages can't be undertaken with any reasonable way of locating one's own position in the ocean unless the earth is considered spherical rather than flat.

Furthermore, the flat earth presupposes the possibility of an infinite earth, or of the existence of an "end" to the surface. The spherical earth, however, postulates an earth that is both endless and yet finite, and it is the latter postulate that is consistent with all later findings.

So, although the flat-earth theory is only slightly wrong and is a credit to its inventors, all things considered, it is wrong enough to be discarded in favor of the spherical-earth theory.

And yet is the earth a sphere?

No, it is not a sphere; not in the strict mathematical sense. A sphere has certain mathematical properties - for instance, all diameters (that is, all straight lines that pass from one point on its surface, through the center, to another point on its surface) have the same length.

That, however, is not true of the earth. Various diameters of the earth differ in length.

What gave people the notion the earth wasn't a true sphere? To begin with, the sun and the moon have outlines that are perfect circles within the limits of measurement in the early days of the telescope. This is consistent with the supposition that the sun and the moon are perfectly spherical in shape.

However, when Jupiter and Saturn were observed by the first telescopic observers, it became quickly apparent that the outlines of those planets were not circles, but distinct ellipses. That meant that Jupiter and Saturn were not true spheres.

Isaac Newton, toward the end of the seventeenth century, showed that a massive body would form a sphere under the pull of gravitational forces (exactly as Aristotle had argued), but only if it were not rotating. If it were rotating, a centrifugal effect would be set up that would lift the body's substance against gravity, and this effect would be greater the closer to the equator you progressed. The effect would also be greater the more rapidly a spherical object rotated, and Jupiter and Saturn rotated very rapidly indeed.

The earth rotated much more slowly than Jupiter or Saturn so the effect should be smaller, but it should still be there. Actual measurements of the curvature of the earth were carried out in the eighteenth century and Newton was proved correct.

The earth has an equatorial bulge, in other words. It is flattened at the poles. It is an "oblate spheroid" rather than a sphere. This means that the various diameters of the earth differ in length. The longest diameters are any of those that stretch from one point on the equator to an opposite point on the equator. This "equatorial diameter" is 12,755 kilometers (7,927 miles). The shortest diameter is from the North Pole to the South Pole and this "polar diameter" is 12,711 kilometers (7,900 miles).

The difference between the longest and shortest diameters is 44 kilometers (27 miles), and that means that the "oblateness" of the earth (its departure from true sphericity) is 44/12755, or 0.0034. This amounts to l/3 of 1 percent.

To put it another way, on a flat surface, curvature is 0 per mile everywhere. On the earth's spherical surface, curvature is 0.000126 per mile everywhere (or 8 inches per mile). On the earth's oblate spheroidal surface, the curvature varies from 7.973 inches to the mile to 8.027 inches to the mile.

The correction in going from spherical to oblate spheroidal is much smaller than going from flat to spherical. Therefore, although the notion of the earth as a sphere is wrong, strictly speaking, it is not as wrong as the notion of the earth as flat.

Even the oblate-spheroidal notion of the earth is wrong, strictly speaking. In 1958, when the satellite Vanguard I was put into orbit about the earth, it was able to measure the local gravitational pull of the earth--and therefore its shape--with unprecedented precision. It turned out that the equatorial bulge south of the equator was slightly bulgier than the bulge north of the equator, and that the South Pole sea level was slightly nearer the center of the earth than the North Pole sea level was.

There seemed no other way of describing this than by saying the earth was pear-shaped, and at once many people decided that the earth was nothing like a sphere but was shaped like a Bartlett pear dangling in space. Actually, the pear-like deviation from oblate-spheroid perfect was a matter of yards rather than miles, and the adjustment of curvature was in the millionths of an inch per mile.

In short, my English Lit friend, living in a mental world of absolute rights and wrongs, may be imagining that because all theories are wrong, the earth may be thought spherical now, but cubical next century, and a hollow icosahedron the next, and a doughnut shape the one after.

What actually happens is that once scientists get hold of a good concept they gradually refine and extend it with greater and greater subtlety as their instruments of measurement improve. Theories are not so much wrong as incomplete.

This can be pointed out in many cases other than just the shape of the earth. Even when a new theory seems to represent a revolution, it usually arises out of small refinements. If something more than a small refinement were needed, then the old theory would never have endured.

Copernicus switched from an earth-centered planetary system to a sun-centered one. In doing so, he switched from something that was obvious to something that was apparently ridiculous. However, it was a matter of finding better ways of calculating the motion of the planets in the sky, and eventually the geocentric theory was just left behind. It was precisely because the old theory gave results that were fairly good by the measurement standards of the time that kept it in being so long.

Again, it is because the geological formations of the earth change so slowly and the living things upon it evolve so slowly that it seemed reasonable at first to suppose that there was no change and that the earth and life always existed as they do today. If that were so, it would make no difference whether the earth and life were billions of years old or thousands. Thousands were easier to grasp.

But when careful observation showed that the earth and life were changing at a rate that was very tiny but not zero, then it became clear that the earth and life had to be very old. Modern geology came into being, and so did the notion of biological evolution.

If the rate of change were more rapid, geology and evolution would have reached their modern state in ancient times. It is only because the difference between the rate of change in a static universe and the rate of change in an evolutionary one is that between zero and very nearly zero that the creationists can continue propagating their folly.

Since the refinements in theory grow smaller and smaller, even quite ancient theories must have been sufficiently right to allow advances to be made; advances that were not wiped out by subsequent refinements.

The Greeks introduced the notion of latitude and longitude, for instance, and made reasonable maps of the Mediterranean basin even without taking sphericity into account, and we still use latitude and longitude today.

The Sumerians were probably the first to establish the principle that planetary movements in the sky exhibit regularity and can be predicted, and they proceeded to work out ways of doing so even though they assumed the earth to be the center of the universe. Their measurements have been enormously refined but the principle remains.

Naturally, the theories we now have might be considered wrong in the simplistic sense of my English Lit correspondent, but in a much truer and subtler sense, they need only be considered incomplete.
 
I don't deny climate science. But what I do feel uncomfortable about is climate change as a political tool. It seems like there is a very strong connection between climate science and the political solutions to climate change. I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, I'm just saying that many of the people most worried about climate change have similar ideas about what our government should be doing to "fix" it.

I don't find any of the current solutions to be meaningful in regard to the actual climate change problem. I also don't see the problems as being anywhere near as dire as they are overwhelmingly painted as being.

My opinion on climate change is that fist, it's going to happen (is happening), so this idea of "point of no return" is silly. But second, it isn't going to destroy humanity. Not even close. Humans live in every climate this planet has to offer. We have for thousands of years. even without modern technology we are the most flexible species I know of when it comes to what kind of climate we can survive and even thrive in. So climate change is not going to cause mass extinction of humans. It just isn't. Third, the solution is not and has never been to go backwards. We will solve this issue by moving forward. Tiny homes, tiny cars, radically reduced consumption, symbolic recycling, these are completely meaningless ways to deal with climate change. Absolutely meaningless.

So to have this idea that if you accept that climate change is happening you must also accept that the political solutions currently being suggested are absolutely non-negotiable is a no-go for me. I'm ready to ride the change out and see where we're at on the other side.
Well said. This had been my stance for a long time. The scenarios of impact to human life are largely speculated, and the solutions are far more risk than reward with no guarantee it will avert anything, and more than a little evidence it will be more damaging to 3rd world countries than the effects of climate change might be, given that the worst case scenarios actually play out that way.
 
I don't deny climate science. But what I do feel uncomfortable about is climate change as a political tool. It seems like there is a very strong connection between climate science and the political solutions to climate change. I'm not suggesting a conspiracy, I'm just saying that many of the people most worried about climate change have similar ideas about what our government should be doing to "fix" it.

I don't find any of the current solutions to be meaningful in regard to the actual climate change problem. I also don't see the problems as being anywhere near as dire as they are overwhelmingly painted as being.

My opinion on climate change is that fist, it's going to happen (is happening), so this idea of "point of no return" is silly. But second, it isn't going to destroy humanity. Not even close. Humans live in every climate this planet has to offer. We have for thousands of years. even without modern technology we are the most flexible species I know of when it comes to what kind of climate we can survive and even thrive in. So climate change is not going to cause mass extinction of humans. It just isn't. Third, the solution is not and has never been to go backwards. We will solve this issue by moving forward. Tiny homes, tiny cars, radically reduced consumption, symbolic recycling, these are completely meaningless ways to deal with climate change. Absolutely meaningless.

So to have this idea that if you accept that climate change is happening you must also accept that the political solutions currently being suggested are absolutely non-negotiable is a no-go for me. I'm ready to ride the change out and see where we're at on the other side.

All those climates that humans have habitated over the years have a couple things in common. Water to drink and air to breathe. Wonder what the livability would be of a climate lacking those things? I guess oxygen masks and water purifiers or something.

I guess i agree that humans can adapt to live in whatever habitit climate change creates..... question is if we would even want to.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app
 
Well, if there is an element of "doomsday hysteria" enveloping at least a portion of the populace, here is the latest best selling New York Times book that is leading that charge. Again, the basic "warning" is presented by envisioning those results of global warming that shrink inhabitant-able zones on Earth. I think that's the thrust, based on reviews, because I have not read the book, do not plan to read it, but if there is one book that seems designed to scare the living bejesus out of people, it seems to be this one at the moment. So, I believe this current "sensation" is leading the "doomsday" predictions that so many in the skeptic community find is part of the problem. And I think you can find a fair share of highly critical reviews. And probably savagely reviewed I should think. So, if one were to characterized the discussion as a doomsday/ hoax science dichotomy, this is the leading edge of the "doomsday paradigm" at the moment:

Reactions:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41552709-the-uninhabitable-earth

And a taste of the book. Because it has become a best seller, it has become part of the culture wars involving climate change, for which reason I post it for those not familiar with it. I'm not endorsing it. It's just a book, but it seems to be an example of fearmongering 2.0.
But the scientific reports, in the form of both the recent UN report, as well as the administration's National Climate Assessment themselves painted a grim picture. And this seems to be a non climate scientist's efforts to describe worst case scenarios based on those scientific assessments.

https://books.google.com/books/abou...BAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button
 
Low key, the "Big Bang" theory will be disproved in our lifetmes as well.

Did Jesus tell you this in your heart? Or are you just talking out of your ***? Because there's no chance in hell you know anything about astrophysics, given your contributions.
 
All those climates that humans have habitated over the years have a couple things in common. Water to drink and air to breathe. Wonder what the livability would be of a climate lacking those things? I guess oxygen masks and water purifiers or something.

I guess i agree that humans can adapt to live in whatever habitit climate change creates..... question is if we would even want to.


Sent from my iPad using JazzFanz mobile app

I don’t think that’s a question at all. If all the water and air becomes unusable without technology humans will use technology to survive. People will not choose death as a species. Sure some people would rather die. But death, and even more so death in such a scale, is a massive motivator. Humans will choose to go on.

But I’m in line with BP as well.
 
The funny thing about the big bang is that the discoveries that led to its formulation were financed by the Vatican, who were trying to prove that the universe had a beginning. Before that, the general belief among the scientific community was that the universe had probably always existed.

Now that it's established science, of course you get the dogmatic mouth breathers going "no big bang! Only God!!", while they shake in their boots at the thought of their eventual non-existence.
 
The Big Bang is in question now?

Evidence for that is literally everywhere in the universe.

It will be disproven! Count on it. I literally know nothing about it, but I know it's wrong because I have been taught to feel uncomfortable when it's mentioned. Like evolution.
 
The funny thing about the big bang is that the discoveries that led to its formulation were financed by the Vatican, who were trying to prove that the universe had a beginning. Before that, the general belief among the scientific community was that the universe had probably always existed.

Now that it's established science, of course you get the dogmatic mouth breathers going "no big bang! Only God!!", while they shake in their boots at the thought of their eventual non-existence.

Have you ever heard someone sit down and tell you what the "Big Bang" is? That there was a point that the Universe never existed and the next moment it existed in all of its entirety? Because of red shift? What are your contributions to astrophysics?

The Big Bang violates the laws of thermodynamics and entropy at the very least. It also means that objects can travel faster than the speed of light. It is basically science mythmaking because they don't know the answer.

If you have never considered these things while choosing to vociferously defend the theory, that makes YOU the dogmatic moron.
 
Have you ever heard someone sit down and tell you what the "Big Bang" is? That there was a point that the Universe never existed and the next moment it existed in all of its entirety? Because of red shift? What are your contributions to astrophysics?

The Big Bang violates the laws of thermodynamics and entropy at the very least. It also means that objects can travel faster than the speed of light. It is basically science mythmaking because they don't know the answer.

If you have never considered these things while choosing to vociferously defend the theory, that makes YOU the dogmatic moron.

Aaaaaaand another one who thinks he's impressing anyone with pamphlet slogans. Must be genetic.
 
Top