Abortions.

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Now you are treading on thing ice there moe (which I happen to agree with, and one reason I do not favor abortion as an option). In today's world you are not allowed to imply that someone should refrain from engaging in activities that produce babies if they are not prepared to take on that responsibility. It is much more important to debate the right to kill the baby than even broach the subject that maybe not even having sex in the first place is a viable and maybe even best option. Everyone should be able to do whatever they want to do completely without consequence.

In a world where many US States are teaching abstinence-only sex education, it takes a massive amount of self-centeredness to say you are even allow to imply abstinence is the best option.

But seriously, you really just put an underscore on the quandry. So the man has one choice: have sex or not, after that his choices are null and void. Yet the woman can have sex all she wants as she has total control over whether to bring the baby into the world or not, and deprive the man of fatherhood or force it on him, regardless of his choices after the fact. Again it is limiting the man's freedom of choice in favor of the woman's. His choices: have sex but only if you want to worry about a baby. Her choice: have sex with no need to worry about a baby since she can just choose whatever she wants to do with it. In essence what he might want out of that act doesn't matter, yet what she wants is the final say in the matter.

What's your alternative? Are you just whining that this is one domain where men can't exert their privilege as fully as they can in other areas?

 

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Succinctly, the man should not be forced to be any more accountable than the woman would be forced to. In that context, the woman will never be forced to be a mother as she can choose an abortion, yet the man can be forced to be a father, at least monetarily, against his wishes. Conversely he cannot choose to be a father if that is his desire as the woman has the sole choice to abort. I think both should be equally accountable, and in this there is no equal accountability.

Both men and women are equally accountable to any born child. If the mother gives birth and later regrets it, she is just as obligated as the father.

Also, forf many women abortions are emotionally wrought, difficult decisions. I hardly see choosing one as ducking accountability.

So equitably, the man should be allowed to, at a bare minimum, legally excuse himself of all responsibilities for the child if the woman chooses to keep it. He should not be forced to pay support if he would have wanted the child aborted and she chose not to. That is not the case in our legal system. A one night stand can result in 18 years of support against the man's will, and at the woman's sole discretion. How is that equal accountability?

How about we agree that, while the woman is pregnant, the man has no obligation to pay child support, but after birth, the father is just as obligated as the mother? That's fair, right?

 

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What I've suggested is that a man should have to right to give up his part in the responsibility of the child. A "male abortion" wouldn't force a woman to get an abortion, it would just give the man the same privilege to opt out that the woman has. Men don't have that right. If the woman decides she wants to keep the child the man is bound to support that child. It would be like a man getting compensation for pain and suffering from a woman for 18 years if she aborted a child that he wanted to keep.

So, if a woman bears a child, she should have the right to just give it up and not support it, letting a father take on all the bills?

 

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What's your alternative? Are you just whining that this is one domain where men can't exert their privilege as fully as they can in other areas?

Can you acknowledge the point being made? This is not about males whining about not being able to exert privilege.

Just like there are women (or girls in many cases) who find themselves ill-equipped in every conceivable way to deal with the fetus they conceived via consensual sex, men (boys) can find themselves in that very same situation. Currently the female has several options in how she wants to proceed and the male has none. The female makes his choice for him. Can you not see that there is a certain amount of injustice in that or is it acceptable because the entire male community enjoys privilege, even though an individual boy in this situation is not guilty of creating that social dynamic? He has to pay for the sins of his fathers as it were?

 

[Gameface]

So, if a woman bears a child, she should have the right to just give it up and not support it, letting a father take on all the bills?

Women can give the child up for adoption, can they not?

Have you heard of cases where sperm donors have been court ordered to pay child support? It has happened.

 

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I don't doubt that a man could be violated in a sexual way by a woman. I doubt that any pregnancies have resulted from this.
Do you have a link that shows otherwise? Though I suppose it would depend on exactly what is classified as rape.

Men are particularly reluctant to admit they were raped, and sometimes don't even see it that way themselves. But you could be right. Perhaps if the man has not consented, his body has ways of shutting those sperm down so the woman can't become pregnant. Hmmm, I wonder why that sounds familiar?

 

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Women can give the child up for adoption, can they not?

Not without the consent of the father, to my knowledge. There may be exceptions.

Have you heard of cases where sperm donors have been court ordered to pay child support? It has happened.

https://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/20...in-case-of-sperm-donor-sued-for-child-support

In this case, the claim is that the law was not properly followed and so the donation contract is void, and it seems the last gavel has not yet rung.

By contrast,

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/04/11/court-says-arlington-sperm-donor-owes-no-child-support/

no child support was ordered.

Not sure what this has to do with the price of tea in China.

 

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Legally I think men should have an option to divest themselves of raising a child they do not want. Naturally there should be some limits on this.

Once there is a child, they have the same legal options that women have.

 

[Gameface]

I just want to say, I was raised supporting abortion rights. It's been a huge ideological divide pretty much my entire life, but these contradictions in rights have me leaning more towards limiting abortion considerably.

Just as Moe pointed out, the parties involved made their choice at the point when either of them could have prevented conception and didn't. Of course, in cases of rape, coercion, deception or medical circumstances then I think abortion should be allowed, no question, but I really question the justice of it as a birth control option based on the issues being discussed here.

 

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Once there is a child, they have the same legal options that women have.

What? That's not true.

Situation: 17 year old Girl gets pregnant by her 17 year old boy friend. They break up, he doesn't know she's pregnant. Next time he has contact he's being ordered to provide a DNA sample. It comes back matching the child he didn't know he had and he's ordered to pay child support.

Is that just an urban legend? I swear that happens.

 

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Can you acknowledge the point being made? This is not about males whining about not being able to exert privilege.

It's not directly about male privilege, but it's certainly at play in various reactions by some of the men in this thread, particularly from some who, in almost every other sphere, seem to emphasize personal responsibility and accepting the consequences of one's actions.

Just like there are women (or girls in many cases) who find themselves ill-equipped in every conceivable way to deal with the fetus they conceived via consensual sex, men (boys) can find themselves in that very same situation. Currently the female has several options in how she wants to proceed and the male has none. The female makes his choice for him. Can you not see that there is a certain amount of injustice in that or is it acceptable because the entire male community enjoys privilege, even though an individual boy in this situation is not guilty of creating that social dynamic? He has to pay for the sins of his fathers as it were?

Why is the boy being "guilty of creating that social dynamic" relevant?

The female has one, temporary, additional option that the male does not, and only because it is her body that the fetus will use. I see *nothing* unfair about the female getting an additional choice because of that additional burden. You might as well whine about only tall people being hired to play basketball in the NBA.

 

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Quote Originally Posted by One Brow View Post
Once there is a child, they have the same legal options that women have.

What? That's not true.

Situation: 17 year old Girl gets pregnant by her 17 year old boy friend. They break up, he doesn't know she's pregnant. Next time he has contact he's being ordered to provide a DNA sample. It comes back matching the child he didn't know he had and he's ordered to pay child support.

Is that just an urban legend? I swear that happens.

Was your situation supposed to rebut the point I made? If so, I missed how it does that. Can you clarify why you think it does?